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Zulu: Lieutenant John Chard:What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead:Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you
 
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 Is metal detecting really a problem

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old historian2

old historian2

Posts : 1096
Join date : 2009-01-14
Location : East London

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PostSubject: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyThu Jun 04, 2009 6:31 pm

I have seen many discussions on metal detecting at Isandlwana. I personally don’t think it’s a problem unless the metal detecting is carryout in close proximity of the graves.
Of course metal detecting must be under close supervision and only carried out in the name of the Military History. For instance although the recent Military button found along with bones was not found by a metal detector, the amount of people interested in wanting to know was regiment he was from was over whelming.
If these items are left in the ground they will corrode and be lost for ever. When I go to a museum I like to see the artefacts that have been discovered its what gives military history a kick, knowing that certain items belonged to the British soldiers of that day.

P.S I have never done metal dectecting, and never owned one.
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Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyFri Jun 05, 2009 6:37 am

I can see where you are coming from. But guidelines would have to be firmly in place. Those undertaking the detecting should hold a formal qualification in archaeology and be a member of an organised body.
All artefacts found should be preserved in a museum. If a relic is found bearing the name of someone who fought in the battle, then every effort must be made to contact living descendants in order to establish what they would like done with the said item.

But yes I agree. If these relics are left in the ground ,then not only will they corrode but also the memory of the battle in years to come.

S.D


Last edited by Saul David 1879 on Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyFri Jun 05, 2009 7:00 am

Morning S.D your up early, thought it was only me that got up at silly hours.

Came across this.

Cape Town

Battlefield etiquette. Members visiting battlefields or taking part in re-enactments during this season of commemoration are respectfully asked to observe the following rules in order that these sites should not be irretrievably spoiled for future generations.
Metal detectors may not be used under any circumstances. Under the new legislation they can be confiscated if used without a permit.
Do not buy artifacts offered by casual sellers at or near battlefield sites.
If you find a button or insignia, cartridge or any other relic, leave it where you found it. If you are concerned that somebody else may remove it, bury it under a stone or in a shallow hole.
Digging in and around graves and memorials is prohibited by both the current National Monuments Act and the new National Heritage Resources Act.
If you see that a headstone or memorial has been damaged in some way, report it to the National Monuments Council's (NMC's) Graves Division.
Do not remove damaged sections of memorials or headstones from their original sites.
Do not attempt to repair damaged memorials or headstones. This may only be done under the authority of a permit from the NMC.
If you see anybody breaking the law or damaging a site by removing artifacts, report them to the NMC or the police.
SUBSCRIPTIONS FOR 2000 Your Committee has approved the following subscriptions for next year: Single R80 Family R90 Overseas (single) R150.
SEASONS GREETINGS The Chairman and all committee members wish to extend Season's Greetings and a wish for a safe and peaceful holiday to all our fellow members.
George Barrell (Scribe) (011) 791-2581
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90th

90th

Posts : 10055
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: metal detecting   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyFri Jun 05, 2009 10:50 am

hi all.

good morning S.D. and LITTLEHAND, bit early isnt it guys ??. i agree with oh2, and you s.d., artifact retrieval should be carried out by qualified personnal , and placed in museums , i dont have a problem with people purchasing battlefield relics, especialy if there is no provenance, as these have been picked up years ago by people touring the battlefields when no-one gave a hoot !. i have been guilty of this, but they are in a good home so to speak..

cheers 90th.
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 57
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyFri Jun 05, 2009 10:05 pm

I’m sorry but with reference to Battlefield etiquette. If I was touring the Battlefield at Isandlwana and came across a regimental button. I would keep it. I have a keen interest in the Zulu war and to have something like in my personal collection, a piece of History a button worn on that day, I’m sure I would bury it again for it to be lost for another 130 years.
That button left England on the jacket of a British Soldier that never came home. But at least something belonging to him did.
It’s not disrespectful its bringing home something that begun its life in England. And something that I would pass down to my kids and so on, With the story of where the button came from and how it ended up at Isandlwana. That's History and that’s keeping the name of Isandlwana alive.
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24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyFri Jun 05, 2009 10:32 pm

John. I totally agree with you.
My old dad gave me a couple of musket balls years ago that he found on the Battlefield at Waterloo. He gave them to me along with the story of Wellington and Waterloo. The Musket Balls made it that little bit more interesting. And I would love to have a relic from the Zulu War be it a button or Cartridge.
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Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptySat Jun 06, 2009 12:08 am

No Metal Detectors then. But still, only 35 years after the Battle, relics were being taken so that the history of this Battle could be remembered.

Standing on the nek Haggard looked out over the battlefield and visualised the events of 22 January 1879. "Few relics are left of the struggle now after the lapse of 35 years, some broken medicine bottles, a good many fragments of bully-beef tins, pieces of the bones of men and animals, that is all. Also we picked up the remnants of two Martini cartridges; the one I found on the nek had not been fired, probably it came from the pouch of some slain soldier, a slate pencil and such sundries." (That night when the party stayed at the store of Charles Evelyn Parr, close to the battlefield, Haggard was given a "number of cartridge cases and the head of one of Durnford's rockets." )
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24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptySun Jun 07, 2009 12:21 am

Why didn’t they bury the soldiers correctly in the first place? Everyone knows the graves are only shallow and access to the artefacts is easy. When I say correctly I mean six foot under. Get a Team in and completely clear the Battlefield of all artefacts either bury them with the soldiers or put them in a museum. Then the so called looting would stop.
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sas1

sas1

Posts : 629
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 41

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptySun Jun 07, 2009 9:10 pm

This looks genuine. It is the remains of a Martini Henry 'boxer' brass cartridge case. Found in the 1960s and formerly in a South African collection.

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NO RESERVE.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
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Age : 51
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptySun Jun 07, 2009 9:23 pm

Lets hope the seller doesn’t receive a visit. If its not genuine.

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John

John

Posts : 2558
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Age : 57
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyMon Jun 08, 2009 9:25 pm

I have just been browsing the RDVC website. Where a discussion similar to ours is go on about metal detecting.
One guy as admitted having a cartridge from one of the battlefields. So what. ?

I really can’t understand what the problem is. If it’s lying on the ground why not take it. He did not dig up a grave to get it.

These artefacts would be better of on display so that generations to come will understand the History of the Zulu war,

I don’t think for a moment the dead soldiers would object because it keeps their memory alive.

Then there is another guy who says, “The United Kingdom should return the artefacts that were taken. I agree we should give them back. That’s where they belong. So what do people want, for them to re-buried

Those who say let the artefacts say where there are, are denying future generations their right to know about the Zulu war of 1879.

What about all the artefacts taken from the Battle Fields of WW1 and WW2 the museums are full of them?

I’ll tell you what. Lets take the Regimental colours from the Beacon Museum, back to the Buffalo River and put them back where they were found, let them rot away along with the memory of Melvill and Coghill.

If anyone who is interested in the AZW as any artefacts like Buttons, Cartridges.
Here is a message to you. Keep them. Show them to your children, and let them show them to their children and let the stories of the Zulu War continue.
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7086
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 51
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyMon Jun 08, 2009 10:26 pm

John. I agree as long as looting / Metal detecting is carried out a way from the graves of the Soldiers/ Zulus. And you do have a point with reference to the artefacts from WWI & 2.
I would love to own a Cartridge or Button from one of the Zulu War BattleFields. But I would have to find it myself. Nothing off e-bay for me.
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sas1

sas1

Posts : 629
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 41

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PostSubject: Re: Is metal detecting really a problem   Is metal detecting really a problem EmptyMon Jun 08, 2009 11:58 pm

Yes John. Many true words are said in anger. And you ain't wrong.

sas1
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