Where does this come from?

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Dear Durnford,
Unless you carry out the instructions I give you, it will be my unpleasant duty to remove you from your command, and to substitute another officer for officer for the commander of No. 2 Column. When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column under his command. Your neglecting to obey my instructions in the present instance has no excuse. You have simply received information in a letter from Bishop Schroeder[sic], which may or may not be true and which you have no means of verifying. If movements ordered are to be delayed because report hints at a chance of an invasion of Natal, it will be impossible for me to carry out my plan of campaign. I trust you will understand this plain speaking and not give me any further occasion to write in a style, which is distasteful to me."

Where does it come from??

Cheers
DB14

Guest

DB14, when you say 'Where does this come from ?' what do you mean. It is a reprimand by Chelmsford, after finding out Durnford intended to move his force from it's defensive position in Natal, after his receiving of independent information, which he immediately wished to act upon.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hi Colin

Thanks Idea

I mean, where was it found, did Chelsmford produce it after the battle?

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

DB14,

That dispatch is a matter of recorded fact; I think you are looking for a conspiracy too far.

It was received and acknowledged by Durnford in front of witnesses on the morning of 14th January 1879.

kwaJimu1879

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hi

Thanks Kwajimu

What happened to it, was it lost at Isandlwana??

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

DB14.I would be interested to know how you interpret the letter.

Especially this part. What doe's it tell us, looking at the bigger picture.

Quote :: When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column under his command.

Subject: Re: Where does this come from? Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:45 am

DB has asked a perfectly logical question of CTSG.
it may very well be recorded fact, if we are to accept that verbatim statement then surely we have to accept the Durnford papers on a similar level.
Yet again, that letter can only have been retrieved from Durnfords trunk. So possible if we subscribe to the theory that the Durnford papers are forged then a similar accusation may also be leveled at that particular letter.

Regards

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Basically it’s saying. You will do as I say. But if you feel the need to do something else that is more practical to ensure the safety of the men and yourself then do it. We can talk about it after.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi DB,
I have seen this letter floated around too, but not sure of its source. But, what is not certain is whether Durnford ever actually received it. Indeed it could just be the sort of thing the anti Durnford faction could have cooked up to make their crooked case.

Ironically , it serves to castigate one man who was reacting to local intelligence in proactive way (pity Chelmsford did not do this ) and, ironically too, the one man who amongst many, was using his inniative to put up an epic last stand that has gone down in the annals of military history.

barry

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Quote :: it serves to castigate one man who was reacting to local intelligence in proactive way (pity Chelmsford did not do this )

He could not be trusted. He was seen as a Sympathiser to the Zulu cause. Idea

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi CTSG,

Indeed, point taken CTSG.
However, who was it at the end of the day who stood and faught very heriocally in a last stand, the one who was not trusted the most. ?
This question actually brings me back to my earlier posts about the Colenso question. I think there was more to this than meets eye, and we will never know about the full impact of those political undercurrents

barry

Guest

It is very strange how the very man who knew the Zulus, maybe on a somewhat equal basis as the Boers did, and responded to the sightings and reacted accordingly, is held to account for the defeat. Suspect

I wonder if certain people slept well at night, without hearing the words 'I told you so !' ringing in their ears. They may well have escaped some aspects post-Isandhlwana - trials, etc. - but I bet it played on their conscience the rest of their lives, though still, as a front, living in denial that it was anything to do with them. scratch

I do believe that people who do wrong in life, get their comeuppance....eventually!

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Quote :: However, who was it at the end of the day who stood and faught very heriocally in a last stand, the one who was not trusted the most. ?

What choice did he have, he brought it upon himself.

Why do you keep saying heroic last stand. scratch

Guest

CTSG - Why do you call Chelmsford a (the) scapegoat ? scratch

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Colin. As far as I'm aware. CTSG comes from the fact the Durnford's has always been cast as the Scapegoat. but with all the various discussions on this forums and others where some blame Chelmsford. CTSG see's Chelmsford being used as the scapegoat for the failings of Durnford.

Hoe that makes sense.

Guest

Chard, thanks for clarifying that. So it is a modern interpretation of his opinion and not as an outcome from the actual events of 1879.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

I guess so. Some have an opinion about Chelmsford, others Col: Durnford.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Well Trooper Pearce didn't find it Suspect

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

What does CTSG mean when he always writes this scratch

When a column is acting SEPARATELY in an enemy's country I am quite ready to give its commander every latitude, and would certainly expect him to disobey any orders he might receive from me, if information which he obtained showed that it would be injurious to the interests of the column under his command

How does it effect Isandlwanan ??

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

It's not so much aimed at Isandlwana. To me what he is saying would be binding to any situation. In other words telling other to use their heads and thing for themselves.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Well Durnford did think for himself and got crucifed for it

Pulliene followed orders and got crusifed as well

The orders are part of what went wrong that day:idea:

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Quote :: Well Durnford did think for himself and got crucifed for it

When.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Well if it says think for yourself then

He the camp left to protect Chelmsford

He didn't disobay any orders Idea

This has been proven

Cheers
DB14

Subject: Where does this come from ? Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:47 pm

Hi Chard .
Durnford very nearly lost his command on another Occasion when He was castigated by Chelmesford for acting upon his
own intelligence . I have posted it before and it's been mentioned a few times on the Forum but not sure where !.
cheers 90th.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Need some help here Idea

What had Durnford done to be sent this letter??

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

The Good Lord Chelmsford was at a lost with what to do with Col: Durnford at first and before he could decide, Col: Dunford made his way to the Middle-Drift on his own initiative therefore causing himself to be reprimanded. Happy to be corrected.

Subject: Where does this come from ? Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:50 am

Hi CTSG.
Durnford was at middle drift and decided to move from there .
cheers 90th.

.

Subject: Re: Where does this come from? Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:27 pm

Colin J. wrote:: It is very strange how the very man who knew the Zulus, maybe on a somewhat equal basis as the Boers did, and responded to the sightings and reacted accordingly, is held to account for the defeat. I wonder if certain people slept well at night, without hearing the words 'I told you so !' ringing in their ears. They may well have escaped some aspects post-Isandhlwana - trials, etc. - but I bet it played on their conscience the rest of their lives, though still, as a front, living in denial that it was anything to do with them. I do believe that people who do wrong in life, get their comeuppance....eventually!

"but I bet it played on their conscience the rest of their lives"

You know Colin, I bet it did not.
(It would, if it were a "normal" person we were talking about, but I am sure Chelmsford went to his grave completely believing he was right).
I do not know enough about the life and times of the good Lord, but if he were today, to be subjected to Hare's 20 point checklist for psychpathy, I wonder how many boxes he would tick?

Subject: Where does this come from ? Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi CTSG.
I may have it wrong , Durnford moved from his encampment above the Thukela down to the river , that's why he was castigated
by The Good Lord ( Chelmesford ) . :lol!:
cheers 90th.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Strange that Durnfords copy hasn't survived Suspect

Yet Chelmsofords has Suspect

Cheers
DB14

Guest

Yeah, this is proof that Durnford was an impulsive, he proved it on the Middle Drift and at Isandhlwana ...

But why Chelmsford seemed to hate him since before the beginning of the invasion, it seems that all the "good Victorian societée" hates Durnford, for he was on the side of the Bishop of Colenso and especially "very close" to the daughter of the latter ...

But Durford thought Chelmsford was incompetent, then it could only end badly ...

Poor 24 th...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Where does this come from? Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:32 am

Pascal
Purely for historical accuracy, illuminate your theory that Durnford was hated by Chelmsford.

Durnford was rebuked by Chelmsford for disobeying orders, as would and commander. this doesnt reflect hatred.

Durnford was appointed by Chelmsford to Column commander, hardly the actions of someone who 'Hated'.

Or have I missed something in the translation........again?

Guest

Hi

When I say he hated, it's a way of speaking, in fact he did not like it, this is about.

And that was the date of their first interview now Durnford was not considered by senior societée Natal to what appears to ...

Cheers

Pascal