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Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
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 Ceteswayo got off lightly.

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
tasker224
Mr Greaves
barry
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old historian2
Dave
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Dave

Dave


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyTue Dec 13, 2011 10:49 pm

Was is alway the plan to capture Ceteswayo, there seems to have been a lot of efford put into his capture rather than just killing him. Which would have been seen as justifiable taking into account what took place during the 1st invasion. And why would the British let him return to Zuluand. At the end of the day it was him that ordered his men to attack the British and many died doing just that, He's seems to have got off very lightly as well as living the high life in London for a while. Any thoughts would be welcome.
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old historian2

old historian2


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyTue Dec 13, 2011 11:18 pm

This is a good point and one I have thought about. knowing the British there was some political point behide him being taken alive. Was an order given officially as there seems to have been a race to get to him. I wonder what the Dutch farmers thought about him being taken alive. They must have been somewhat concerned that he had been treated as a guess in England only to brought back to Zululand by the British. certainly food for thought.
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Frank Allewell

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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 5:53 am

Not a chance did he get of lightly.
He was the victim, the British invaded his country on the flimsiest excuse, decimated his army, stole the land and his soverenty.
If this was in todays world Britain would be hauled before the international community and condemned soundly.

Regards
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barry

barry


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Did Cetewayo get of lightly?   Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 6:11 am


Hi Springbok9

Correct.
The arrogance that we so often refer to here carried through to all the "Crown " colonies.
In SA's case one of the biggest bad news items was Cecil John Rhodes.

barry
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old historian2

old historian2


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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 6:56 am

When we say " Lightly" we meant he wasn't hanged of shot as like hundreds who fought under him.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 7:03 am

Good and Bad I suppose Barry.
The Jamison Raid probably showed the colonists attitude for what it was. Pity Radzewill never got her man, could have changed history.

Bugger, of topic again.

OH2

Yeah your probably correct OH, judged from a european point of view. But this is Africa, eurocentric ideas and norms dont really apply. The fact that Cetshwayo was a so called despot really had nothing what so ever to do with the world outside Zululand.


ADMIN

Hi Pete, would it be an idea to have a general chat area that really of topic ideas could be thrown around?

Just a thought really.

Regards
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 11:29 am

There is already an off topic section.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 6:39 pm

springbok9 wrote:
Not a chance did he get of lightly.
He was the victim, the British invaded his country on the flimsiest excuse, decimated his army, stole the land and his soverenty.
If this was in todays world Britain would be hauled before the international community and condemned soundly.

Regards

Have to agree with this, Cetshwayo, his people and their way of life were the victims of the invasion, all day long.
There must have been a reason why the British captured him, not sure what, but there must have been a reason.
I could only suggest that the British have never gone in for summary execution of leaders, no matter how despotic. Also, if Cetshwayo had been tried fairly in a court of law, I think he would have had a strong case! He would have almost certainly won, and the sordid details of the illegal British invasion would have been revealed to the general public of the time
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 7:28 pm

I'm not sure the Boer farmers saw that way.
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tasker224

tasker224


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 7:35 pm

The Zulus never came to Europe, or started farming parts of Holland.
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Drummer Boy 14

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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 7:52 pm

The invasion was unfair and wrong Idea




Cheers
DB14
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24th

24th


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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 7:56 pm

Quote :
The invasion was unfair and wrong

Why Question
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 8:10 pm

Hi 24th

Well what major offence had king Cetwayo done to be invaded??

He had been at peace with the Brittish for over 20 years

The ultimatum was completely ridiculas, it could never have been agreed with.




Cheers
DB14
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Dave

Dave


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PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 8:58 pm

He rule with a rod of iron. Killed Zulu's when he felt like it. Terrorised the Dutch Settlers. And sooner or later he would have invaded Natal.
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Drummer Boy 14

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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 9:01 pm

Dave wrote:
He rule with a rod of iron. Killed Zulu's when he felt like it.

But they where the rules he lived by and they had been the rules ever since the Zulu people came into existence.


Cheers
DB14
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tasker224

tasker224


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 10:21 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
Dave wrote:
He rule with a rod of iron. Killed Zulu's when he felt like it.

But they where the rules he lived by and they had been the rules ever since the Zulu people came into existence.


Cheers
DB14

And since before the rise of the Zulus as a major power.
Whether we like it or not, we have never accepted that different cultures do things differently to us.
As we have all seen (and will see) in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years, you can not just impose democracy and outside rules on a nation and a culture that has never had it and doesn't want it. 20 years ago, one could walk the streets of Basra and Baghdad in safety. Not today.
The idea of imposing democracy falls down on its own logic.
Libya on the other hand has undergone regime change by the power of the people - this is democracy.
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impi

impi


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 10:37 pm

Tyrants can not be allow to intimate their people with the fear of death. Now or in the past in the name of culture.
Remember we had Zulus fighting on our side during the Zulu War.
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Drummer Boy 14

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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 10:41 pm

impi wrote:
Tyrants can not be allow to intimate their people with the fear of death.

These where the rules that they had lived by for nearly 100 years.

Are there any Zulu accounts that complain about there lifes or the rules??

We included them purly to make the ultimatum more unagreeble.



Cheers
DB14
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impi

impi


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 10:48 pm

Quote :
These where the rules that they had lived by for nearly 100 years
.Then it's a good job we stepped in.

Quote :
Are there any Zulu accounts that complain about there lifes or the rules??
Every Zulu that fought on the side of the British is testament to that.
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tasker224

tasker224


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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyWed Dec 14, 2011 11:25 pm

impi wrote:
Tyrants can not be allow to intimate their people with the fear of death. Now or in the past in the name of culture.
Remember we had Zulus fighting on our side during the Zulu War.

As well as the Zulu people themselves, the Zulus had a lot of other people on their side also, the good bishop Colenso being one. The Zulus on "our" side as you put it only had ambitions to see Cetshwayo removed so that they would be installed into posiitions of power by the British victors.
You get collaborators and traitors in all wars.
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littlehand

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Ceteswayo got off lightly.  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ceteswayo got off lightly.    Ceteswayo got off lightly.  EmptyThu Dec 15, 2011 8:50 pm

Gent's when you have time, read thought this very interesting observations just after the Zulu War. The Zulu customs like place red hot stones on the victims groin, forcing them to swallow boiling water, and that's nothing compared to what else the Zulu King done to his own people. Also a very good over view of the British forts left behind. Anyway see what you think.

Click Here
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