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 Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.

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Dave

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon Dec 19, 2011 11:19 pm

"Louis Napoleon's death caused an international sensation, and in one slanderous account Queen Victoria was accused of deliberately arranging the whole thing"

Can anyone provide information on who the accusers were and what reasons would Queen Victoria have had for arranging his death, what could she stand to gain from the death of the Prince.
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90th

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death    Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 11:26 am

Hi Dave .
No doubt about the first part of your post '' caused an international sensation '' but the other part ............Please Suspect Suspect Suspect . From where did you find this statement ? . As that may answer the question !
Dave I'm not having a dig at you personally just the second part of your post . The old story '' Don't shoot The Messenger '' but in this case it's '' Dont Shoot The Poster ! '' . Idea
cheers 90th 😕 😕 .
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runner2




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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyTue Dec 20, 2011 12:04 pm

I'll shoot him!! Silly post!!
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littlehand

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon May 04, 2015 8:55 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

My question?  Did he or didn't he die fighting the Queen's cause?
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John Young

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon May 04, 2015 9:33 pm

Littlehand,

In my opinion the answer would be no, he died trying to establish his own reputation.  What better place for a Bonaparte to show their capability than on the battlefield?

He should not have been there in the first place.  He had tried to go to war before 1879.

In 1877 he volunteered his services to the Austro-Hungarian Kaiser Franz Josef, whose Balkan states where being used as a battlefield for the Russo-Turkish War.  Franz Josef politely declined his offer.

On to 1879 and the AmaZulu presented themselves as the perfect foe, after all no Frenchman could possibly take umbrage at his fighting against a savage nation.  Here was his opportunity to prove himself for the entire world to see. The Duke of Cambridge was willing to let Louis indulge, but D'Israeli 'had never heard of anything more injudicious'.  Louis's little enterprise was stymied, until his mother entered the fray, the Empress Eugenie took up his cause with Queen Victoria, who obviously was not a disinterested party as for as Louis was concerned, if the rumour regarding her youngest daughter is to be believed.  Eugenie's motive must have been political the adventure could do no harm to Louis' credibility in France. Faced with the interference of two obstinate women - as he referred to them - D'Israeli relented, and with Cambridge's agreement Louis was to be permitted to go to the front as a "spectator" in a private capacity. Cambridge wrote in confidence to Lord Chelmsford stressing Louis's status, but warning the general to keep in check the Prince's spirited behaviour. The French on the hand were outraged.  There was an obvious political divide - to the Bonapartist party he was already Napoleon the IV, whilst the Republicans feared him as a threat to their power, but still regarded him as a Frenchman.  Now he was deserting his own people to risk his Imperial neck for the hated English in what was referred to at the time as "a petty dispute with some obstreperous blacks at the other end of the world".  Louis assured his own party that his reasons were political, and he wished to gain experience and improve his knowledge of the art of war, some would say with a view to practising it on some of his fellow countrymen on his safe return.

But these are just my opinions.

John Y.
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rusteze

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon May 04, 2015 9:49 pm

That's an interesting question. There is no doubt he died fighting the Queen's enemies - so in that practical sense the article cannot be right, but I agree with JY.

IK makes the point in "With his Face to the Foe" that the Prince  " watched his classmates from Woolwich take up their places in the British Army, and realised that - as a foreign national and a head of state in exile - no amount of courtesy from the Queen or her government could ever open that route to him." ............. "He did, at least, manage to secure an honorary position with a British battery."

So he could not formally be a member of the British army and perhaps that is what was meant. The idea of a Bonaparte having his statue in Westminster Abbey would also not have been popular with many (given our small problems with his family's earlier attempts to invade!), notwithstanding the sympathy for the Prince.

Steve
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littlehand

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon May 04, 2015 10:12 pm

John good answer, one I think would apply, if QV hadn't given her permission for him to go to SA.
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Ray63

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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyMon May 04, 2015 10:49 pm

But he did not hold an official military position in SA. He was by all accounts a volunteer.
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyTue May 05, 2015 8:08 am

Not on his arrival in SA. But LC added him, I believe to Rays staff.
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyTue May 05, 2015 11:51 am

Didn't know that.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyTue May 05, 2015 4:34 pm

The Duke of Cambridge wrote to Chelmsford saying that the Prince "was going out on his own account to see as much as he can of the coming campaign in Zululand. He is extremely anxious to go out and wanted to be employed in our Army; but the Government did not consider that this could be sanctioned".

Disreali said "I fear some indiscreet friends in very high places gave him private letters to Ld. Chelmsford, begging the General to place the Prince on his Staff."

Chelmsford then appointed him as an extra ADC, saying "the Prince Imperial has consented to accompany me into the field, and without putting him in orders I have arranged with him that he shall be considered as one of my staff."

So Chelmsford ends up giving Louis a status that is neither one thing or the other. Chelmsford considers the Prince as one of his staff, the Government does not.

IK points out that Chelmsford was notoriously casual about staff matters. In my view he was also pretty casual about following Government policy as opposed to the manipulations of the two Royal Families.

JY still has it about right I think.

Steve
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyFri May 08, 2015 10:32 am

"On April 14, Lord Chelmsford writes— The Prince seems pleased that I asked him to come on my personal Staff. He has quite accepted the position of aide-de-camp. I hope his health will stand it, as it would he a serious responsibility if it broke down. He appears to he a good, keen soldier. The next letter is from Pietermaritzburg, on the 20th April, and says— I arrived here on the 17th. The Prince Imperial accompanied me. He had been unfortunately laid up with fever at Durban, and the jolting of the carriage and the heat of the sun rather knocked him up. I am afraid he is not naturally very strong, and I very much doubt if he will be able to stand the long rides we have in store for him if he follows me wherever I go. However, he is bent on it, and has plenty of courage.
Lord Chelmsford goes on to say— I am, for the first time since I held this command, going to take a doctor with me, in order that he may look after the Prince. His name is Dr. Scott.
He next writes from Colenso, Natal, on the 26th of April— The Prince was not allowed to leave Pietermaritzburg with me, as he has been suffering from fever. I am expecting him, however, to join me very shortly. And he writes from Dundee on the 30th of April. We arrived here yesterday afternoon, and managed to get our tents pitched before the thunderstorm. The Prince and the doctor caught us up at Ladysmith. The Prince appears quite well. The air is cool and pleasant, and I hope the open air will do him good. From the same place, 17 miles from Utrecht, on the 6th of May, he says— The Prince accompanied me to Kambula, which soon knocked him up, and he had a slight attack of fever. The last letter is written from Utrecht, and is dated the 21st of May. I received it yesterday. It says— The Prince Imperial went on a reconnaissance, and very nearly came to grief. I shall not let him out of my sight again if I can help it."
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyFri May 08, 2015 11:58 am

In other words he was a bloody nuisance.

Steve
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Queen Vic accused of organising the Prince Imperials Death    Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyFri May 08, 2015 2:46 pm

Hi Steve
Reckless was the word bandied around by some of those who saw him in operation ! Shocked . He was keen to get among the Zulu ! No . Unfortunately they obliged Suspect Suspect
90th Very Happy
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyFri May 08, 2015 8:53 pm

90th wrote:
Hi Steve
Reckless was the word bandied around by some of those who saw him in operation ! Shocked . He was keen to get among the Zulu ! No . Unfortunately they obliged Suspect Suspect
90th Very Happy

So the Good Lord Chelmsford had two, hot heads within the ranks. !
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyWed May 13, 2015 12:30 pm

OK, so the Prince was a bit of a pain in the arse,  Mad   but it seems strange that LC says that he won't let the Prince out of his sight again, then goes on to do just that, did he have a hidden agenda I wonder? Suspect

Could he have secretly pre-arranged with some of the NNC to dress up as Zulu's and lie in wait for the Prince to meet up with them and have an accident??? scratch Suspect

Maybe it's Thesiger who should be under suspicion for organising the Prince's death. Shocked Suspect Joker
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Prince Imp Death    Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyWed May 13, 2015 4:25 pm

Hi Martin
LOL Very Happy Very Happy , You may have a point ! Joker Joker Joker
90th Salute
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyWed May 13, 2015 4:56 pm

Whatever the case he ended up with the biggest, grandest and most expensive memorial of anyone involved - a whole monastery built on top of him!

Steve
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyWed May 13, 2015 5:36 pm

Picking up on Martin's point.

Don't forget that Thesigers were originally from Saxony, which obviously formed part of the German alliance which overthrew the French in 1870. (In jest of course)

JY
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Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death.   Queen Victoria accused of organising Prince Napoleon's Death. EmptyThu May 14, 2015 12:34 am

Hello Gary me old wombat  Salute  , yes, you never know, LC just might have had it in for the Prince.

Like John (Y) has shown, Thesiger was not actually a true Englishman  No (and therefor not a true gentleman), he came from Kraut stock,  Mad  so there just might have been a bit of ill feeling towards the French Prince.  Suspect  

And Steve is correct, just google in and look at the size of that building Shocked
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