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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift

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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 1:54 pm

Hi
Read today in a extrais of the account on Rorke's Drift published by Rev.G. Smith,Acting Chaplain to the force at Rorke's Drift ,which I found on page 254 of the book "Historical Records of the 24 th Regiment, from Its Formation, in 1689" by George Paton, Farquhar Glennie

" The Zulu do not appear to have thrown their assegai at all,using them solely for stabbing purposes "

At Rorke's Drift, the Zulus have no Isijula ​​and in this case is not thrown spears ...?

It's unbelievable and impossible and we can not even trust the eyewitnesses ...

Cheers

Pascal

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matthew83

matthew83

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Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 5:20 pm

I would look further into this for other witness accounts If I were you.
There must have been assegais thrown at rorkes drift, Hook for one was hit by a thrown assegai which left a nasty scar across the front of his scalp.

Having said that, the presnce of barricades would have rendered the throwing of assegais pointless at anything but close range, so perhaps there were few thrown and Smith was not witness to them.

Cheers

Matt
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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift    Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 5:34 pm

good evening

Of course, I mean being present at Rorke's Drift, he would not say such a stupid due ...

Like what we should not necessarily rely on eyewitness and what they write,alas...

Cheers

Pascal














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barry

barry

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PostSubject: The Zulu Impi's mKonto   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:06 pm



Hi Pascal,

The assegais, or mkontos as used by the Zulu impis, was designed for close in fighting and was not desigined for lofting or throwing , ie ballistically it was unsuitable
for this as the handle was too short. The assegai action was usually an underhand jab upwards, generally into the stomach/intestinal region.

This is one reason why the defenders at Rorkes Drift had considerable advantage over the enemy as the combined length of their MH's fitted with bayonet had a much greater reach than the Zulu with his short shafted mkonto, and the enemy could not get close enough to use the weapon.

As an aside, there were many cases reported at RD where a trooper bayonetting his oponent on the ground, actually had to put his boot on the enemy and pull hard upwards to withdraw the bayonet as it had penetrated the ground as well. Fortunately they dont make bayonets like that anymore.

barry
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matthew83

matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:19 pm

Barry,

I'm pretty sure a zulu after the battle of isandlwana describes the last moments of the battle thus.....

I paraphrase as I don't have the account to hand.

'durnford and the police stood back to back and we could not get to them until many of the warriors brought them down by throwing assegais and when they were few, we finished them'

Somebody on here will no doubt decipher my paraphrasing and be able to attribute it to the correct zulu witness statement, as such I'm quite certain they had throwing assegais (2-3 per man) as well as their stabbing assegais.
Whether or not they were routinely carried, I've no idea but I don't doubt that some did.
Shaka did away with them but they were later re-introduced.

I am happy to be corrected as I am here to learn.


Cheers


Matt
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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Age : 23

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:25 pm

Hi

About Durnfords last stand

It was along time before they were over come, they through down their guns when their ammunition was done and then commenced with their pistols then they formed a line shoulder to shoulder and back to back and fought with there knifes.”

They threw spears at the sqaure of the 24th on the Saddle


Cheers
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matthew83

matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:34 pm

Yes DB14, I recall that and it indeed forms a portion of it.

Do you by chance have the zulu witness account of the spears being thrown on the saddle?
I'm pretty sure, convinced even, that the resistance on the saddle was overcome with the aid of thrown spears.

There is another zulu account, I paraphrase again.....

'we could not get near the soldiers, any warrior who ran up to stab a soldier was immediately fixed through the stomach or throat and so we threw spears and that way we overcame them'

Cheers

Matt
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:41 pm

The men took up new positions at the rear. Some threw their assegais, others shot at them to advoid their bayonets, but those who dared to approched too closely were stabbed in the throat or stomach and fell to the ground immediately.

Of to bed, the sooner I sleap the sooner santa comes 😕


Cheer
DB14
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Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift Empty
PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:48 pm

Barry if the British can do this:
As an aside, there were many cases reported at RD where a trooper bayonetting his oponent on the ground, actually had to put his boot on the enemy and pull hard upwards to withdraw the bayonet as it had penetrated the ground as well. Fortunately they dont make bayonets like that anymore.

Is that the Zulu were a bit thin...


It's not me who said that the Zulus did not have throwing spears, ie isijula​​,it's Ammunition smith is in his account of Rorke's Drift where he was present !

See above my first post

Cheers

Pascal
















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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at R.Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:04 pm

Hi Barry.
The zulu's certainly had throwing spears and whoever said 2-3 per man is certainly close to the mark . Smith
may have forgotten or in his limited area of the conflict they mightn't have been thrown into his area . When did
Smith write about his experiences ? . Was it years later ? .
cheers 90th. 😕
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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift    Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:30 pm

Hi 90 th

Smith wrote that at Rorke's Drift on 3 rd February 1879.

Cheers

Pascal
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matthew83

matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:35 pm

well well well,

I am a god fearing man and the word of a man of god is as good as set in stone as fact as far as I'm concerned but what do we make of this account from rev smith?...........

About 4.30 p.m. the Zulus came in sight round the right hand end of the large hill in our rear. Only about twenty at first appeared advancing in open order. Their numbers were speedily augmented and their line extended quite across the neck of land from hill to hill. A great number of Dongas in their line of approach, a stream with steep banks, the garden with all its trees and surroundings, gave them great facilities for getting near to us unseen. The garden must have been occupied, for one unfortunate Contingent Corporal, whose heart must have failed him when he saw the enemy and heard the firing, got over the parapet and tried to make his escape on foot, but a bullet from the garden struck him, and he fell dead within a hundred and fifty yards of our front wall.

Wow!, we know (or presume) the contingent man was shot by a British soldier, does this add weight to the argument that Rev Smith may have suffered PTSD and thereby his account could sensibly be nulified when other primary evidence is brought to the table?
Or something else?
The Rev mentions a shot from the garden wall after mentioning the fact the zulus had found cover there.

Cheers

Matt


Note: If any evidence holds as fact for me, it is that of the reverend, but knowing he denies the presence of thrown assegais and his 'protect your own' account of the NNC corporal death, what to think?, was he ever at the barricade?
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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:45 pm

Read today in a extrais of the account on Rorke's Drift published by Rev.G. Smith,Acting Chaplain to the force at Rorke's Drift ,which I found on page 254 of the book "Historical Records of the 24 th Regiment, from Its Formation, in 1689" by George Paton, Farquhar Glennie

" The Zulu do not appear to have thrown their assegai at all,using them solely for stabbing purposes "

At Rorke's Drift, the Zulus have no Isijula ​​and in this case is not thrown spears ...?

It's unbelievable and impossible and we can not even trust the eyewitnesses ...


That's what I said, it is said that shit while he was at Rorke's Drift ...

We can not trust those who have seen a particular event and therefore the ones they write, what misery














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matthew83

matthew83

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PostSubject: Re: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift   Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 9:56 pm

Pascal,
In theory I agree.

Though I presume this was a typo.........

That's what I said, it is said that shit while he was at Rorke's Drift ...

'Merde' would be more appropriate I think.


Cheers

Matt
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PostSubject: Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift    Ammunition Smith at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 10:23 pm

yes it is a spelling mistake, I meant he wrote "que de la merde "while he was at Rorke's Drift

Cheer

Pascal
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