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» Private 1934 J Brewer and Private 1919 J Bathe 99th Regiment
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» Lieutenant R T H Law 77th (East Middlesex) Regiment
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» Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.
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» NO TORTURE OF 'LITTLE DRUMMER BOYS' (OR ANYONE ELSE) AT ISANDLWANA
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» Sapper 13760 Richard Henry Morris C Troop Royal Engineers
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» William Henry Hoskin Allen
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» Private 1820 Richard Cotter 1/24th Regiment
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»  Acting Army Chaplain Rev John MacTaggart
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» Lance Corporal J H Wardman 94th Regiment Wounded at Bronkhurstspruit
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» Private 36/470 W Trump 1/13th Regiment
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» Lt. Francis Pender Porteous
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» Private 2237 A Vousden / Vowsden 1st Dragoon Guards
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» Sergeant Instructor of Musketry 1407 David Moore 91st Regiment. Gurney and Eshowe
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» Private 2163 Henry "Old Harry" Newport 91st Regiment
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» Did the 55th (Westmoreland) Regiment supply any drafts?
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» Francis Ernest Colenso Cetshwayo's legal advisor
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» Captain Henry D Harrison 2/3rd Regiment
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» Lieutenant Colonel Tyrrell in charge of Natal Railways during AZW
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» Queen Victoria presents the V.C. to Pte. F. Hitch
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» Biographical details on Trooper Laasen/Larsen?
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» Drummer 1899 Albert Thomas Glover 99th Regiment
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 A strong a presentiment of coming evil...

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Mr M. Cooper
6pdr
kopie
Julian Whybra
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3391
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyWed Nov 13, 2013 6:28 pm

Kopie
It is still possible to use 'Natal Kaffirs' when quoting or speaking in certain historical contexts, but you HAVE to be careful.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8421
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 1:58 pm

A word of advice, if you visit RSA don't even consider using it in any context at all.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3391
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 3:53 pm

That goes without saying!
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 6:06 pm

our RSA friends are still very sensitive!
and eager to put that odious regime
which was apartheid where it belong's,
in the past, meanwhile the struggle
against inequality and justice go's on
in a spirit of reconcilliation.

We must accept that some words are
just to inflammatory and must be! in
this modern world confined to the
dustbin of world history.

Julian's point is of course correct, i have
books from 1871 and every decade since
and many multiples in most decade's, we
who have this material readily under-
stand the appalling casual racism contained
in a hell of a lot of these accounts. but most
of us who have read such word's. do not
substitute a minor less threatening alternative
as we read in real time.no we confront them
head on and leave them where we find them
which is in ignorance!!!

Julian was again quite correct that historical
racial terms can only be repeated in an
academic setting, these terms are offensive.
but it does not stop authors of the modern
era repeating them, usually with a disclaimer..
but they do not attempt to eradicate them.
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Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 6:11 pm

Lester

Now the racism is replaced by xenophobia, this is politics, this has not changed since the nineteenth century ...

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 6:51 pm

rascal, Oui, je crains qu'il ne changera jamais de sitôt..
its down to all of us to set the example. and if favoured
with off spring..instill correct values while they are
young and impressional. xhosa
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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3391
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 7:10 pm

I feel I must point out before I become a target that my explanation/justification of the correct usage of current non-pc terms is not MY explanation/justification but from the guidelines of the University of London (which all other universities in the UK ape).

I would add that historically it is wrong to judge the standards/mores of a previous time by the standards/mores of 2013. What appears to be casual racism now was then not casual racism but accepted everyday usage.

I have a badge of the Anglo-German Friendship Society from 1936. It has two entwined flags on it. The Union flag and the Nazi swastika. Who now would have thought such a thing possible? But then...
In the 1980s the USA was funding Saddam Hussain's Iraq to fight a proxy war against Iran. Who now would have thought such a thing was possible? But then...
In 2013 the USA and Iran are sitting around a table discussing the peaceful development of Iran's nuclear programme. What will be happening in 2025 I wonder?
And as for China...watch this space...
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kopie




Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 8:02 pm

[quote="Julian Whybra"]  What appears to be casual racism now was then not casual racism but accepted everyday usage.  
quote]

No, Julian, it was racist back then. Do you think "Maori" Browne had equal opportunities for promotion in his company?

I would not criticise or judge people for being racist back in 1879. Being racist was the norm back then.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
Join date : 2009-04-24

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 9:02 pm

Was it Racist, or just words!
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyThu Nov 14, 2013 9:47 pm

ask the Black people on the
receiving end of it!! Sad 
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 6:43 am

Human beings are all the same ...

There are racist at all times and in all ethnic groups ... not just with the white ...

And that will never change, it is the policy that creates this, it is governments that creates this, for all levels, in internal politics and international politics ...

Capitalism gives imperialism , imperialism gives colonialism and colonialism gives racism, xenophobia ect ...

Patriotism gives nationalism and it also creates racism, xenophobia ect ...

And governments use patriotism for political purpose, because the citizens of all countries are zombified ...

And I'm not talking about religion, which also is used for political purpose...

Does it always end badly to fill the pockets of a few thousand of s.. .. . ..... !!!

But humanity used to get f..... !!!

And nothing has changed since man became sedentary ... it continued our day with internet and it's even worse ...

You only have to go on social or political forum and you'll see ...

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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kopie




Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 7:54 am

Pascal MAHE wrote:
Human beings are all the same ...

There are racist at all times and in all ethnic groups ... not just with the white ...

And that will never change
Sadly, Pascal is probably right. Racism has existed perhaps even before Cro Magnons started ethnically cleansing the Neandertahls. However, humans have done a lot of bad things for a long time, including slavery. It still goes on, but just because it "has always happened" does not mean that it should be accepted, or that intelligent people should give up leading the way in changing it.
Humankind has separated itself from the rest of the animal kingdom by its conscience, values, thinking, morals, empathy, and trying to live and learn by those qualities. It is called humanity and long may it continue! If intelligent people were to give up on it, the human race would devolve back to being just another species of ape.
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 am

Yes sir , humankind has itself separated from the rest of the animal kingdom ...

This is the problem, there has never been a worse species on earth that the human species ...

All species of giant animals who reigns on earth before the appearance of man, were bisounours next humans ...

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal

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Julian Whybra




Posts : 3391
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyFri Nov 15, 2013 5:13 pm

Kopie
Using the words that everyone else used in 1879 as acceptable terminology is not the same thing as equal opportunities for promotion in his company. And it is not racist. Even Bishop Colenso writes of 'Kaffirs' and you couldn't get anyone at that time more pro-Black rights and equalities than him in SA.
Think of our own time. In the 70s it was the done thing to refer to 'coloureds'; it was not acceptable to talk about 'blacks'. The euphemism changes with fashion. The same thing tends to happen with all euphemisms - they are of their time.
It is not what you call people but how you treat them that matters.
When you write "being racist was the norm back then" presupposed that people had the concept of 'racism'. That becomes very difficult to substantiate.
I could write that being stupid was the norm back then or being cruel was the norm back then. They equally would both be nonsense. One cannot make such generalisations in history.
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Guest
Guest




A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 16, 2013 6:36 am

Racism is to consider that a person is inferior to another, because its people is of a less advanced civilization on the technical and industrial plan, and often do not possess industry ...

Nowadays people are more xenophobic than racist , it is because of the waves of immigration ...

When the racialist is something else, they class men like animals , seeking them belonging to ethnic groups, ect normally they are not racist , but sometimes they become or do research for purposes of demonstrating , the so-called superiority of one ethnic group over another ...

Must explain to people that if the word race comes from the word racism, racism does not exist, because there is usually only one human race to earth, the homo sapiens ...

So, this is only xenophobia ...

For the word Kaffir , in the nineteenth century , it was a word to designate all the blacks of b South Africa, everyone employed , but in the mouths of some, there was a racist connotation , but not for all...
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6pdr

6pdr


Posts : 1086
Join date : 2012-05-12
Location : NYC

A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptySat Nov 16, 2013 6:23 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
One cannot make such generalisations in history.
Or, increasingly, any generalization whatsoever. This "joke" may put things in perspective:

"How Many Historians Does it Take to Screw in a Lightbulb?"

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Chard1879

Chard1879


Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

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PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptySun Nov 17, 2013 7:37 pm

"The term Caffre or Kaffir was in general use among Europeans throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth century to describe a black South African. It is derived from kafir, the term for unbeliever used by early Muslim traders, and the British found it preferable to Xhosa which they could not pronounce. Although undoubtedly dismissive, the word does not then seem to have implied the degree of bitter contempt with which it has become loaded in more recent times"
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Guest
Guest




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PostSubject: Re: A strong a presentiment of coming evil...    A strong a presentiment of coming evil...  - Page 2 EmptyMon Nov 18, 2013 8:10 am

This is just a generic word, it was perhaps not even a racist word...

It was just for designer negroid types peoples in South Africa and only in South Africa in the XIXth century...
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