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 Responsibility of Dartnell ?

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ymob
impi
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PostSubject: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi all

Dartnell, is it not you also like others, responsible for the carnage of

Isandhlwana ?

Salute

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:33 pm

He asked permission to stay and Chelmsford granted it.
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:46 pm

Dartnell may well have found a huge Zulu army in the Mangeni area and was correct to inform LC.
Chelmsford believed this was the main Zulu army and went for it. He was fooled by the Zulu trick.
In the meantime, this Zulu army silently slipped away during the darkness to join the attack on iSandlwana, leaving a few warriors to harrass LC and Dartnell to fool them into thinking the army was still there.
No blame to Dartnell.
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Dartnell had nothing to do with the lost of the camp at Isandlwana. He thought he had found the mainImpi, and done what any officer would have done, called for reinforcements.

Just out of interest. What does being in "command" mean. Like to get forum member opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:32 pm

" He thought he had found the mainImpi ". Just what is the problem," and done what any officer would have done, called for reinforcements " Just what is the problem...

Finally, even as a Durnford who is responsible for anything...

Incroyable !

Salute

Pascal
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:33 pm

He didn't think he had found the main army, he asked for 2 companies of regulars to
help him attack in the morning, it was Lord C who made the assumtion that it was the main Zulu Army.



Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Yes but it's still him, who was misinformed LC ...
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 pm

scratch
Pascal MAHE wrote:
Yes but it's still him, who was misinformed LC ...
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 8:27 pm

Pascal. No one knew the Zulus were near Isandlwana. Chelmsford moveed off to assist Dartnell, those at the camp were going to follow. Isandlwana never was intended to be a permanent camp.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 8:40 pm

He didn't misinform anyone, there were a large body of Zulus near Dartnell on the evening ofthe 21st.
He asked permission to stay out that night, Lord C garnted permission, then he asked for reinforcements, 2 companies
of regulars to surport him in the morning, C'ford thinks it the main Zulu army and splits his forces.


Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 10:30 am

Hi all

I knew the camp was temporary, but I still do not know how long the brave Pulleine had received orders to stay ...

I would love to know the details of the words used by Dartnell, who have been led to believe Chelmsford that the whole Zulu army was in front of Dartnell ...

Salute

Pascal
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tasker224

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 5:38 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
He didn't misinform anyone, there were a large body of Zulus near Dartnell on the evening ofthe 21st.
He asked permission to stay out that night, Lord C garnted permission, then he asked for reinforcements, 2 companies
of regulars to surport him in the morning, C'ford thinks it the main Zulu army and splits his forces.


Cheers

And then during the night of the 21st/22nd, it is not unlikely that the vast majority of this force slipped silently away to join their comrades for the attack on iSandlwana, leaving a few skirmishers behind to keep Dartnell and LC awake all night and maintain the illusion that this was the main impi.

10 miles or so away? - those warriors would have covered that ground in under 90 minutes.
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Quote :
I knew the camp was temporary, but I still do not know how long the brave Pulleine had received orders to stay ...

From when Chelmsford left to when Durnford arrived and took over Commard. Long enough to have started some sort of fortifications ect.
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 9:52 pm

[quote="impi"]
Quote :
Long enough to have started some sort of fortifications ect.

Like ??

Pulliene had orders, defend the camp, fight compact if you are attacked and act on the defencive if the enamy apperaed.

He got a report at 7:30 and stood his men to and awaited devolopments. He got other reports of these Zulus, but
could see nothing. Large bodies of Natives wasn't worrying, Wardle had beat 10,000 warriors with just his company previosly. No one knew the main army was there, just a number of warriors sometimes advancing, sometimes retreating.

Forget hindsight.
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed Mar 16, 2016 12:43 pm

Frank,
You consider (for some good reasons) that Dartnell has a great responsability in the disaster.
There is this interesting comment from Lt Milne (RN):
The 21 january "Proceding on our ride, shortly after leaving camp we [with Chelmsford] met Major Gossett and Captain Buller. They brought intelligence that the two forces under Major Dartnell and Commandant Lonsdale had met, and that the enemy some 400 strong was in front of them, having taken up a position one and a half miles distant on a ledge in the side of a hill, a small valley separating the two forces. Major Dartnell sent in for instructons as to what he was to do; in the meantime if no orders were sent he intented to bivouac on the ground he had taken up, and watch the enemy.
Orders were immediatly sent to Major Dartnell to attack it, and when he thought fit ».

Source : British parlement : « Further correspondence respecting the affairs of South Africa », August 1879, c.2454, pp.182-186, « Report of Procedings of 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 24 january 1879 » (Archibald B. Milne, Lieutenant, RN.)
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 5:28 am

Morning Frederic
A lot of that statement is colored in hindsite. The second part is, I believe, taken out of context in that it was Dartnel that suggest he would want to attack and permission was given rather than the inferred 'order to attack' I would insert given permission.
And you know my views on Dartnel Very Happy agree

Cheers
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 7:45 am

How i see it is,  the person who decided to make Dartnell force so large the Boers had it right by sending out small mobile forces in all directions and once discovered head back to camp giving them plenty of time to prepare for a large Zulu attack Dartnell force was way to large over 200 men many NNC on foot which hamstrung Dartnell quick return this large force made Dartnell believe he could deal with the Zulu himself if he returned to camp Chelmsford would not have needed to come to his rescue.  Remember Browns force which left Isandlwana at the same time in the direction of Isepezi was small and mobile they were chased of by a Zulu masking force but they returned to camp to report there find promptly
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 8:14 am

Aussie
Spot on !
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aussie inkosi

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 11:39 am

So Frank Who was it that put Dartnell force together was it the same person who put Browns force up
if it was the same person ? why the two so different,

The two possibilities that came to mind was Dartnell himself or Chelmsford. Remember half of the Carbineers went with Dartnell who was it that chose who was staying and who was going I would think Dartnell am I right Frank ?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 11:52 am

I would imagine that Chelmsford gave the orders in over all concept and the two commanders put together their force. But surely Browns force was put together as infantry because of the area they were going through? There are a couple of stories about Dartnels force being picked, those that stayed and those that went, Durrant Scott possibly? Stevens another?
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Brett Hendey

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PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 20, 2016 5:44 am

Frank
It is my belief that the mounted Colonials (Natal Mounted Police, Natal Carbineers, Newcastle Mounted Rifles, Buffalo Border Guard) that remained in the camp did so because they, or their horses were not fit. Their numbers were relatively few, so their absence hardly affected the total number in the Dartnell patrol.
Regards
Brett
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90th

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PostSubject: Responsibility of Dartnell    Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 20, 2016 6:19 am

Frank I've also read previously as Brett posted , the Colonials that stayed in camp did so because of the condition of their horses , many of the horses were knocked up , therefore , those that were struggling , were left in the camp to recuperate .
90th
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