WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Zulu Film Quote Lieutenant Bromhead :If 1200 men couldn't hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Tthe mystery of JWJ Davies
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 24, 2022 10:17 pm by Tim Needham

» Bechuanaland police
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:18 pm by ciroferrara

» 17th Lancers
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Jun 23, 2022 3:07 pm by gardner1879

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 4:02 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captain Robert Francis Vetch
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed Jun 22, 2022 1:03 pm by Frank Allewell

» The difference between a Drummer and a Boy in the Band.
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 4:07 am by magolding

» Zulu Boys Recollection of the Zulu War
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyTue Jun 21, 2022 3:40 am by magolding

» Remembering the Rebellion - The Zulu Uprising of 1906 Jeff Guy
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Jun 20, 2022 10:09 pm by Ian Chard

» Sergeant Arthur Horatio Still, 12th Lancers
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 7:29 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Lawler 1/24th
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:42 pm by gardner1879

» Quartermaster Michael James Kenny Connaught Rangers
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 12:39 pm by gardner1879

» Captain Ulick De Burgh
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 8:55 am by gardner1879

» I am a happy boy!
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 18, 2022 5:17 am by nitro450

» Patrick Murray, 313, 88th of Foot
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 5:22 pm by gardner1879

» Zulu Dawn on DVD - better than Blu-Ray?
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 3:29 pm by TimmyH

» Lieutenant Richard Hawes MacCarthy, 2nd/4th Regiment
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 17, 2022 2:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Howard Molyneux Edward Brunker
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Jun 16, 2022 11:05 am by gardner1879

» Location of Special Service Officers 1878/9
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed Jun 15, 2022 12:34 pm by gardner1879

» Cdvs and cabinet card photos wanted
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyTue Jun 14, 2022 2:19 pm by ciroferrara

» Other ranks patrol jacket
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Jun 13, 2022 12:23 pm by John Young

» A Staffordshire Regiment in the Zulu and Zekukuni Campaigns
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Jun 12, 2022 5:12 pm by gardner1879

» Good website or seller for zulu war era Carte De Visites
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 11, 2022 2:27 pm by ciroferrara

» In search of more service papers
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 11:10 pm by charltontom7@gmail.com

» Isandlwana solving the enigma
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 10, 2022 1:41 pm by Julian Whybra

» Brave mens blood. Frontier Light Horse picture
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Jun 09, 2022 8:54 pm by ciroferrara

» Picture Quiz
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySat Jun 04, 2022 2:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Platinum Jubilee
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyFri Jun 03, 2022 10:25 pm by Julian Whybra

» Trooper G Hennessey (301) Frontier Light Horse
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Jun 02, 2022 2:43 pm by 90th

» Captain Robert Julian Orde Jocelyn 8th Reg
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon May 30, 2022 6:48 am by gardner1879

» Best book on colonial soldiers during zulu war
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun May 29, 2022 12:14 am by ciroferrara

» Sergeant E Wilson
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed May 25, 2022 9:30 am by gardner1879

» 1940 Review of 'Lord Chelmsford and the Zulu War'
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyTue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm by gardner1879

» H.M.S. Forester
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyTue May 24, 2022 2:55 am by 90th

» Royal Small Arms Repair Factory - Pimlico / Mill Bank , London
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed May 18, 2022 2:04 pm by MPS1

» Deafness linked to the effects of battle
Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon May 16, 2022 1:56 pm by Younghusband

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
The Death of the Prince Imperial Zulu War 1879
Top posters
90th
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
littlehand
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
ADMIN
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
1879graves
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
rusteze
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
John
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
gardner1879
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
John Young
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
ciroferrara
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Vaughan
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Ian Chard
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
90th
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Bill8183
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Tim Needham
Responsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_leftResponsibility of Dartnell ? BarResponsibility of Dartnell ? Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
carbineers william Prince james brown henry john Russell harford horse Police payne Isandlwana Franklin spalding zulu Mounted smith George taylor Natal drift 24th Durnford martini Woolfryes
 

 Responsibility of Dartnell ?

Go down 
+5
ymob
impi
littlehand
tasker224
Drummer Boy 14
9 posters
AuthorMessage
Guest
Guest




Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:27 pm

Hi all

Dartnell, is it not you also like others, responsible for the carnage of

Isandhlwana ?

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


Posts : 2008
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 25

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:33 pm

He asked permission to stay and Chelmsford granted it.
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 12:46 pm

Dartnell may well have found a huge Zulu army in the Mangeni area and was correct to inform LC.
Chelmsford believed this was the main Zulu army and went for it. He was fooled by the Zulu trick.
In the meantime, this Zulu army silently slipped away during the darkness to join the attack on iSandlwana, leaving a few warriors to harrass LC and Dartnell to fool them into thinking the army was still there.
No blame to Dartnell.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 53
Location : Down South.

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 2:43 pm

Dartnell had nothing to do with the lost of the camp at Isandlwana. He thought he had found the mainImpi, and done what any officer would have done, called for reinforcements.

Just out of interest. What does being in "command" mean. Like to get forum member opinions.
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:32 pm

" He thought he had found the mainImpi ". Just what is the problem," and done what any officer would have done, called for reinforcements " Just what is the problem...

Finally, even as a Durnford who is responsible for anything...

Incroyable !

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


Posts : 2008
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 25

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:33 pm

He didn't think he had found the main army, he asked for 2 companies of regulars to
help him attack in the morning, it was Lord C who made the assumtion that it was the main Zulu Army.



Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 4:37 pm

Yes but it's still him, who was misinformed LC ...
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 7:14 pm

scratch
Pascal MAHE wrote:
Yes but it's still him, who was misinformed LC ...
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 53
Location : Down South.

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 8:27 pm

Pascal. No one knew the Zulus were near Isandlwana. Chelmsford moveed off to assist Dartnell, those at the camp were going to follow. Isandlwana never was intended to be a permanent camp.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


Posts : 2008
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 25

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 04, 2012 8:40 pm

He didn't misinform anyone, there were a large body of Zulus near Dartnell on the evening ofthe 21st.
He asked permission to stay out that night, Lord C garnted permission, then he asked for reinforcements, 2 companies
of regulars to surport him in the morning, C'ford thinks it the main Zulu army and splits his forces.


Cheers
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 10:30 am

Hi all

I knew the camp was temporary, but I still do not know how long the brave Pulleine had received orders to stay ...

I would love to know the details of the words used by Dartnell, who have been led to believe Chelmsford that the whole Zulu army was in front of Dartnell ...

Salute

Pascal
Back to top Go down
tasker224

tasker224


Posts : 2101
Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 55
Location : North London

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 5:38 pm

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:
He didn't misinform anyone, there were a large body of Zulus near Dartnell on the evening ofthe 21st.
He asked permission to stay out that night, Lord C garnted permission, then he asked for reinforcements, 2 companies
of regulars to surport him in the morning, C'ford thinks it the main Zulu army and splits his forces.


Cheers

And then during the night of the 21st/22nd, it is not unlikely that the vast majority of this force slipped silently away to join their comrades for the attack on iSandlwana, leaving a few skirmishers behind to keep Dartnell and LC awake all night and maintain the illusion that this was the main impi.

10 miles or so away? - those warriors would have covered that ground in under 90 minutes.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 42

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Quote :
I knew the camp was temporary, but I still do not know how long the brave Pulleine had received orders to stay ...

From when Chelmsford left to when Durnford arrived and took over Commard. Long enough to have started some sort of fortifications ect.
Back to top Go down
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14


Posts : 2008
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 25

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyMon Mar 05, 2012 9:52 pm

[quote="impi"]
Quote :
Long enough to have started some sort of fortifications ect.

Like ??

Pulliene had orders, defend the camp, fight compact if you are attacked and act on the defencive if the enamy apperaed.

He got a report at 7:30 and stood his men to and awaited devolopments. He got other reports of these Zulus, but
could see nothing. Large bodies of Natives wasn't worrying, Wardle had beat 10,000 warriors with just his company previosly. No one knew the main army was there, just a number of warriors sometimes advancing, sometimes retreating.

Forget hindsight.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyWed Mar 16, 2016 12:43 pm

Frank,
You consider (for some good reasons) that Dartnell has a great responsability in the disaster.
There is this interesting comment from Lt Milne (RN):
The 21 january "Proceding on our ride, shortly after leaving camp we [with Chelmsford] met Major Gossett and Captain Buller. They brought intelligence that the two forces under Major Dartnell and Commandant Lonsdale had met, and that the enemy some 400 strong was in front of them, having taken up a position one and a half miles distant on a ledge in the side of a hill, a small valley separating the two forces. Major Dartnell sent in for instructons as to what he was to do; in the meantime if no orders were sent he intented to bivouac on the ground he had taken up, and watch the enemy.
Orders were immediatly sent to Major Dartnell to attack it, and when he thought fit ».

Source : British parlement : « Further correspondence respecting the affairs of South Africa », August 1879, c.2454, pp.182-186, « Report of Procedings of 21st, 22nd, 23rd, and 24 january 1879 » (Archibald B. Milne, Lieutenant, RN.)
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 5:28 am

Morning Frederic
A lot of that statement is colored in hindsite. The second part is, I believe, taken out of context in that it was Dartnel that suggest he would want to attack and permission was given rather than the inferred 'order to attack' I would insert given permission.
And you know my views on Dartnel Very Happy agree

Cheers
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 372
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 56
Location : MELBOURNE

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 7:45 am

How i see it is,  the person who decided to make Dartnell force so large the Boers had it right by sending out small mobile forces in all directions and once discovered head back to camp giving them plenty of time to prepare for a large Zulu attack Dartnell force was way to large over 200 men many NNC on foot which hamstrung Dartnell quick return this large force made Dartnell believe he could deal with the Zulu himself if he returned to camp Chelmsford would not have needed to come to his rescue.  Remember Browns force which left Isandlwana at the same time in the direction of Isepezi was small and mobile they were chased of by a Zulu masking force but they returned to camp to report there find promptly
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 8:14 am

Aussie
Spot on !
Back to top Go down
aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 372
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 56
Location : MELBOURNE

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 11:39 am

So Frank Who was it that put Dartnell force together was it the same person who put Browns force up
if it was the same person ? why the two so different,

The two possibilities that came to mind was Dartnell himself or Chelmsford. Remember half of the Carbineers went with Dartnell who was it that chose who was staying and who was going I would think Dartnell am I right Frank ?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8231
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptyThu Mar 17, 2016 11:52 am

I would imagine that Chelmsford gave the orders in over all concept and the two commanders put together their force. But surely Browns force was put together as infantry because of the area they were going through? There are a couple of stories about Dartnels force being picked, those that stayed and those that went, Durrant Scott possibly? Stevens another?
Back to top Go down
Brett Hendey

Brett Hendey


Posts : 264
Join date : 2010-12-02
Location : Kloof, KZN

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Responsibility of Dartnell ?   Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 20, 2016 5:44 am

Frank
It is my belief that the mounted Colonials (Natal Mounted Police, Natal Carbineers, Newcastle Mounted Rifles, Buffalo Border Guard) that remained in the camp did so because they, or their horses were not fit. Their numbers were relatively few, so their absence hardly affected the total number in the Dartnell patrol.
Regards
Brett
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10482
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Responsibility of Dartnell ? Empty
PostSubject: Responsibility of Dartnell    Responsibility of Dartnell ? EmptySun Mar 20, 2016 6:19 am

Frank I've also read previously as Brett posted , the Colonials that stayed in camp did so because of the condition of their horses , many of the horses were knocked up , therefore , those that were struggling , were left in the camp to recuperate .
90th
Back to top Go down
 
Responsibility of Dartnell ?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Dartnell's patrol
» Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?
» Major Dartnell's predicament
» Lord Chelmsford and Major Dartnell.
» What if Dartnell had returned?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: