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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Isandlwana- Firing Lines

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Drummer Boy 14

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Isandlwana- Firing Lines Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyFri Apr 20, 2012 11:04 pm

Zulu Victory says how there were 3 firing lines at Isandlwana

E,F surported by NNC and NNH and later C coy on the Spur

A,H,G and the Guns

Durnfords 2 troops of NNH in the Donga

I might be wrong but didn't the "Firing Line" only realy form until E and F withdrew from the
Spur and i've never heard of C coy being up there ?

scratch

What was the atchual line up ?



Cheers
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySat Apr 21, 2012 7:36 am

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySat Apr 21, 2012 1:05 pm

DB14
I cant find any reference in Zulu Victory to there being 3 companies on the Ridge.
On page 197, map 5, it clearly mentions Cavaye and Mostyn. Are you sure your not reading map no6 incorrectly? thats the only time that Younghusband is shown alongside the other two and it occured at the bottom of the ridge when Younghusband gave support for the other two coming down from the ridge. They then withdrew in the line.
That would then have the line as Younghusband , Mostyn, Cavaye, Guns, Wardell, Porteous and Pope of the imperial regiments.

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySun Sep 02, 2012 10:35 pm

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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySun Sep 02, 2012 10:47 pm

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Interesting to see just how far the British were forced to retreat in one hour.
When you consider the locations of the NNC bearing in mind they only had one rifle per ten men - and that with only ten rounds, it's know wonder they bolted.
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The waggons seem to be quite away from the tented area of the camp. Possibly moved by the Zulu's
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 8:19 am

littlehand

The Google Earth views are wrong.
No1 What you have listed as iSandlwana is actually on the Tahalane ridge, Shiyane is on the top of mpethe and RD is to far South.
No2 You have the full conflict taking place between the Nqutu range and the Tahalane spur. iSandlwana mountain is in the bottom right hand corner of the view. The positions indicated are a couple of kilometres to far North.
The position of the road is incorrect and again loo to the bottom left and you will see the modern road, its not to far away from the old military road.
The wagons shown in the photos are in the wagon park area, possible they were moved around but that is the parking area for most of the supply wagons. The wagons parked along the top of the tented area where the regimental specific wagons, ammo reserve, tents cooking equiptment etc.
Your bottom line of how far the line retreated though is very valid. The positions of Pope etc on the rocky ridge were not their original positions, they did in fact over look the 'Big' donga

Cheers

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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 10:29 am

If we was to go by the opinion of the evidence uncovered in the Secrets of the dead documentary, that being the firing lines were infact further out, where would they have been any ideas... ?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 10:45 am

Dave
Literall right under the lip of the escarpment on the western end and close into the mouth of the 'valley' close to the present church. On the Eastern end right above the large donga.

Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 11:24 am

Thanks Springbok, do you know if any remnants were found to concure with soldiers being at that location.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 12:08 pm

hi dave
yes bits and pieces were found but there is nothing conclusive that I would bet my house on. To be honest there is now so much urban development that has taken place we will never ever know for a fact. All we have left to go on are the various reports and eye witness accounts.
One of the best pointers is in the story of Padre George Smith by Canon Lummis. He quotes the Padre talking of his camp site at iSandlwana: ' There is a fine spring of water which we have brought under the hill at some distance close to our doors in pipes made out of the iron ferrules of the tentpoles found at iSandlwana (these lay thick on the ground where the tents had been burned). One of the first things we did on arrival was to bring the numerous skeletons laying about on the site of our future home.'

This future home is now the site of the chapell in the village of iSandlwana, the bones are stored in a small room built at the rear of the chapell.

The area was described by other travelers as a killing field. This matches up with the zulu descriptions of the first regiments being decimated. So gives us a fair idea of the line orientation.

There are a lot of other pointers but no actual proof.

Hope that helps.

Cheers
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 1:06 pm

So Zulu remnants not British....
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 1:13 pm

Actually its debatable. Smith spoke to the locals and was told they were soldiers ( theoretically the missing two companies) this has been debated over and over and so far there has never been any proof there was actually two missing companies, even though Chelmsford refers to them.
Another school of thought has Roberts being killed in a kraal in that area by friendly fire.

Like most things Dave, pay your money and take your choice. It all boils down really to what you personaly want to believe.

Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 5:34 pm

Never really got me head around this missing two Compaines. What they saying they just disappeared into thin air. Question
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyMon Sep 03, 2012 9:27 pm

Springbok, In hinesight, I dont think anyone really knows where the firing lines were. And until a complete and proper survey is undertaken I don't think we ever will know.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyTue Sep 04, 2012 7:13 am

Littlehand
Couldnt agree more, its all pretty much in the interpretation of the various suvivor maps and descriptions. The East facing lines are pretty defined by the various testimonies. The initial positions of C E and F the same, but there withdrawl positions, anyones guess really. The area around the guns, Wardell Porteous etc is the blank spot. And again every account has the Volunteers and the NNC in differing positions. The possibilities of another 'dig' are zero, the whole front line position is now built over so the chances are pretty remote of ever finding anything.
As I said earlier to Dave. Pay your money and take your chance.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyTue Sep 04, 2012 7:19 am

impi

Its all a moot point. I think it all started with a mention in Chelmsfords report. Then it was refered to in one or two other reports. Smith refers to it as well.
What they all had in common was the mention that two companies went onto the ridge and didnt come back down again. Those two companies could only have been E and F and we do have testimony that they came back down. There again is speculation that it could refer to Roberts who got his men into a kraal on the ridge and was then killed by friendly fire from the RA. Again all part of the enigma that is Isandlwana.

Cheers
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Ken Gillings



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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyTue Sep 04, 2012 8:19 am

Good morning. Just a point about the ossuary (situated in a little building behind the St Vincent's church). Most skeletal remains that have been found on or around the battlefield since the event have been placed into it. These will undoubtedly have included friend and foe (depending of course which side your friend and foe were...). Regards Ken
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barry

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PostSubject: Maing of GE map   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 6:15 pm

Hi Llittlehand,

Springbok is right, that GE map shown is incorrectly annotated. Isandlwana is the little pimple shown to the immediate left, or west, of Conical Kopje.
Talking of remaims : has anyone any idea what happened to the remains of 60 or so enemy, which included Siryao's son, which were kliied by the Dartnell patrol on the day preceding the Isandlwana battle (21/01/79).

regards,

barry
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 6:36 pm

Suspected as much.. I expect the most accurate map available are those that are published in TMFH. Campbell Collections Map No. 3, titled Military Survey of the Battlefield of Isandlwana dated 11 November 1879, surveyed by Captain T.H. Anstey RE, Lieutenant Penrose RE, annotated by Brigadier General Sir Henry Evelyn Wood.
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Firing Lines    Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyWed Sep 05, 2012 8:26 pm

Hi Barry.
As for the remains after Sihayo's Kraal I doubt anything was done with the bodies , and it was the 12th Jan as opposed to the 21st . Very Happy .
Cheers 90th. You need to study mo
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 7:22 am

Hi Barry/90th
I think Barry is refering to the engagement above the Mangeni falls area and the caves at Phindo.
If it is that engagement Barry then pretty sure nothing happened. There are no signs of any grave areas there.

Cheers
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana - Firing Lines    Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 9:28 am

Hi Springbok / Barry .
Sorry guys my bad ! . Read the post in a hurry . Shocked
Cheers 90th. Salute
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barry

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PostSubject: 21st January 1879   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 10:17 am

Hi 90th/springbok9,

Thanks for your responses
No, I only refer to the 21/01/79. The Siryao's kraal incident occurred some days before.
On 21/01 Dartnell's force split into two and pursued enemy elements on top of the mountain, The men were in skirmishing order and fired at a retreating enemy, killing about 60, which included Sirayos son. The impi then disappeared in the folds of the hills. Dartnell then sent Mansel with six men forward to see where they were.To their surprise and shock, the Zulu Impi quickly reappeared and attempted it's usual tactic of surrounding the small recce team with Mansel. Mansel however anticipated this and quickly withdrew back down the mountain to rejoin the rest of the force and reported to Dartnell on the large size of the impi confronting them. This is what prompted Dartnell to tell Chelmsford that his force was too small to attack the Zulu's, whereupon Chelmsford ordered him to withdraw and await instructions.

regards

barry
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Drummer Boy 14

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 5:14 pm

One of Sirayos sons was killed on the 12th, how many did he have ?




Cheers
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impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyThu Sep 06, 2012 9:44 pm

Is this the encounter you speak of.

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Pages 55-56
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barry

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PostSubject: 21/01/79 Sirayo's sons   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyFri Sep 07, 2012 8:23 am


Hi Impi,
Correct, the last paragraph at the bottom of page 56 briefly covers the encounters with the Impi on that day.
I do not know how many sons Sirayo had, but if two were killed by the British forces, this man would certainly have had an ax to grind.

regards

barry
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90th

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PostSubject: Isandlwana - Firing Lines.   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyFri Sep 07, 2012 10:23 am

Hi DB.
Sihayo had 3 sons that I know of Tshekwane , Mkhumbikazulu and of course Mehlokazulu .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyFri Sep 07, 2012 10:38 am

Barry
If I can clear up the time and date issues.
On the 21st Mansell with Lt Royston of the Carbineers lead a recce force towards the Phindo ridge, the zulu were in force on the side of Magogo Hill and tried to surround Mansell but withdrew without engaging, Mansell also withdrew back towards Hlazakazi and met up with Lonsdale on the hill above the Mangeni Gourge. They watched the Zulus on the slopes of Magogo and Dartnell decided to send word to Chelmsford via Lt Walsh that he would attack the zulu the next day. ( Chelmsford got the message while he was on the Nqutu ridge doing a recce.
That Evening the NNC twice bolted fearing the impi was coming for them. Because of this Dartnell lost faith in the NNC and sent word back to Chelmsford of this and asked for imperial support. That lead to Chelmsford arriving the next morning at 6am.

I cannot find any source that gives details of a fight on the 21st.

Sources available include
Symonds
Harford
Noggs Newman
Hamilton Brown.
All were with the force on the 21st and 22nd.

The engagements in the area all happened on the 22nd.
Ive sent photos to Admin of the engagement area for posting.

Regards
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptyFri Sep 07, 2012 10:28 pm

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Photos and text by Springbok.


Last edited by Admin on Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySat Sep 08, 2012 6:58 am

Thanks Pete.
1. Looking right down the valley is the iSandlwana plain and faintly in the distance is iSandlwana itself.
2. Mangeni Gorge begins on the left of the shot. This is the area Chelmsford wanted to establish his next camp. The ridge is the ridge that HAmilton Brown mentions as the first time they looked towards the camp after hearing the guns. The small hill on the right, Mdutshane, was the begining of the sweep towards Magogo by the nnc. The valley begins on the right.
3. After coming round the small hill Phindo is straight ahead. This is the route Mansell probably took in his recce of the 21st
4. Close up of Phindo showing the caves that the Zulus hid in when being chased.
5. The ridge that the impi threatened Mansells patrol from.
6. The valley between Magogo and Silutshana that Chelmsford had his Breakfast in, (and dissapeared for two hours). Russell eventually found him coming in from the bottom of the valley having ridden all around Silutshane.
7. The top of the Phindo ridge looking down the valley with the Mangeni Falls at the end. This is the view the zulus had of Mansell riding towards them. To the right of the Gorge there is a ridge just visible, this is where Dartnell had his camp the night of the 21st. Behind me when taking the photo is iSipesi mountain. Behind that is the camp site of the main impi on the night of the 20th. So its more than probable that when Mansell patroled on the 21st that the zulus that charged him then retired were the flank guards for the main army. The impi that camped on the side of Magogo and lit fires that night were there to stop any one finding the main army that was either on the way to Ngwebini.
8. This is the countryside that Russell had to transverse riding from left to right, around Silutshana on the right and then back up the valley.Similar shot to photo1

Sorry guys, bit long winded but I hope it helps to put one of the side shows into perspective. There is so much more to isandlwana that the blame game.

Cheers

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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana- Firing Lines   Isandlwana- Firing Lines EmptySat Sep 08, 2012 5:19 pm

Thanks Sprinkbok.

The areas in the various photos are so vast. Makes you wonder how the British could move about inthe red uniforms, they must have stuck out like a sore thumb so to say.
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