The Martini-Henry

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Some great photos.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=14&t=368525

Subject: The Martini-Henry Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi John.

Thanks for this mate, very interesting, and like you say, some great photo's.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:48 pm

That is indeed a great link John, thanks for posting it. I wonder if Neil has seen it and if he would concur with all the facts and figures?
A great read on the subject of this iconoic rifle for those like me who have never had the fun of firing one, illustrated by some excellent photos.

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Tasker

My new website should be live in a couple of weeks, I've had all my rifles professionally photographed, and they'll be some downloads of the files (some in excess of 20meg ) I've been so engrossed in it and the book I've hardly been online. I am working on the bayonets section at the moment.

The website will have images and details on every military variant including the Enfield Martini which does not appear on any other site.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:27 pm

Certainly looking forward to this website. However you still need to write the book. Salute

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Neil,

Delighted to hear that you are publishing.. However it would be very useful for the more technicallyl minded if you could add something on the propellant powders used at Isandlwana. I am presently following up on the hygroscopicity of Sodium nitrate, one of the three components in the blackpowder. Now this propensity of "saltpeter " to pull in moisture into the compound, thus reducing its efficacy and would have been another cause of fired amunition not impacting the target where aimed,. or worse still not going off at all. This scenario would have applied to all damaged ammunition where the head had become loose in the neck crimp and the ammuntion had become immersed in river crossings or exposure to rainfall, or merely exposure in a very humid climate..

regards

Barry

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Barry,
As much as I'd like too, I see no point, I will be including tables at the back of trajectories, velocities etc. and there is 8000 words on the cartridge and the jamming issues. However blind the average reader with too much techno and it becomes a chore to read. I do have the constituent mix of RFG2 from Waltham Abbey.

Whilst I empathise with your ideas, in reality be it in South Africa, the Malay peninsula, Afghanistan, the Sudan or any other hot spot, the men still had the same climatic conditions to encounter, water was water, likewise humidity, so to try an pin a specific reason IMO is not really going to switch many readers on, It would me, but I ain't the potential 1000 buyers of the book.

In reality Bullers report 7669/4907 on Thesigers report 7669/4248 from the Cape are the only primary reports, and I have attempted to elude from surmising. Bullers report is specific to ammunition carried in the bandolier.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:37 am

Barry, if you remember your old chemistry lessons from school, it is Potassium nitrate that is known as "saltpeter".
A quick browse on the web then, apparently, sodium nitrate was sometimes known as "Chile saltpeter" as it was available in large quantities from Chile and was often use as a substitute for the superior potassium nitrate, in black powder.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:44 am

A further bit of digging around on the internet and I have found that sodium nitrate is VERY hygroscopic, whereas potassium nitrate is "not very hygroscopic, absorbing about 0.03% water in 80% relative humidity over 50 days."
I also found another piece which states that the charcoal powder in black powder, stopped the potassium nitrate from clumping, recrystalliing or being physically compromised in any noticeable way, hence, one can assume that potential the issues that Barry originally brought up had obviously been thought about, figured out and dealt with long before the late 19th C.
Did the ammo cartridges have "use by" dates ???

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Tasker.
No "use by", but manufacturing date was added to packet and box. Although by 1881 ammunition of early manufacture (MK1. pre 1874 dated) still languishing in stores was ordered to be routinely being broken up to manufacture blanks, ammunition showing signs of deterioration, such as slight damp ingress or verdigras was re-classified and labelled "good for practice to 300 yards" or discontinued completely and broken up.

Subject: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:52 am

Hi Neil.

This is indeed great news about the new site, and also the book.

With many people being interested in the Zulu War and in particular the Martini Henry Rifle, you should get many visitors to the site, and also many sales of your new book, and I wish you all the luck with both (I hope you have put my name down for a copy of the book :lol: ).

My M-H is looking good now, it is coming on a treat, when friends come round for a natter and a brew, I get many comments about it, in fact some have become very interested in the AZW after seeing it and handling it.

Again Neil, best of luck with both projects.

Best regards mate.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:04 am

Thanks Neil.
I shall be buying a copy of the book too, look 4wd to the website also.
Martin, how did you come by your MH and which model is it? Know anything about its history? (Hope you aren't thinking about sourcing any cartridges for that thing!!! - Be careful for goodness' sake!!!)

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Tasker
from me, I have eight 1870's Mk1/2 and Mk2 for sale at the moment. They're section 58 antiques.

Regs

Subject: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:32 am

Hi Tasker.

I got it from Neil, it's an 1875 model. Don't know much of it's history, but I don't think it would have been used in the AZW.

No need to worry about me being careful mate, I have handled and owned many weapons over the years, including rifles, shotguns, swords, knives, bayonets, etc, etc, and (touch wood), never had an accident yet.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:07 am

Martin, that's a relief and do continue to be so careful. Only the one accident would suffice!
Neil, thanks for that. I am sure that the MHs you have for sale will soon enough find deserving homes. Mrs Tasker224 has forbidden the presence of any weapons in our house, years ago - and she is unanimous in that!

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Tasker
convince 'er its an object d'art, and a thing of natural beauty.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:34 am

Neil Aspinshaw wrote:: Tasker
convince 'er its an object d'art, and a thing of natural beauty.

:lol: :lol:

you know that, I know that..... Salute

Mrs Tasker224? doh, there goes a pig flying past the window!

Posts : 190 Join date : 2011-03-16 Age : 57

Very interesting Salute

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:12 pm

This could be. A very interesting year. Two up and coming books. " Springboks and Neil's. You need to study mo

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

3 books, don't forget Julian's book.

Subject: The Martini-Henry Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:53 am

Hey tasker, you can always get a de-activated one, and like Neil says, tell her it's a thing of natural beauty.

Come on, don't let the side down, insist on owning a work of art, after all, you are the man of the house (whether you have Mrs Taskers permission to say so or not), :lol: :lol:

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Tasker. if your other half is anything like mine, she will far away of re-activating it and use it on you. Play safe just buy the stock.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Thanks for the advice on how to handle your woman, fellas, but after 25 years of happy marriage, I would like to offer you some and say that the secret of a happy marriage is to agree all decisions together. She makes the decision, you agree with it!
(Let her have her way most of the time, and when you make a big decision, she is far likely to accept it without resistance)!

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

25Years!!!!!!! You deserve the VC...

Subject: The Martini Henry Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:34 am

Hi Tasker .
Out here we dont get that long for murder ! :lol: . Seriously well done a good effort , missus and myself are at 12 yrs .
Cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:28 am

CTSG - I think it is her that deserves the VC really! Not long after we'd hitched up, I signed up for 4 years just to "get it out of my system." 23 years later....couple of years ago I promised her that "this was the last" tour. Earlier this year....but this year really was the last one. I told her I had to go, which was true (once I had volunteered).
90th - I see what you mean mate. I could have been married to 5 different women in that time for 5 years each Shocked

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:50 pm

"The rifle did not have a handguard, which meant that after firing volleys at a rapidly closing enemy, Tommy Atkins had to grab the hot barrel to use the bayonet."

Is this why the rifle was mainly used as a club, when the ammuntion ran out.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:28 am

littlehand wrote:: "The rifle did not have a handguard, which meant that after firing volleys at a rapidly closing enemy, Tommy Atkins had to grab the hot barrel to use the bayonet."

Is this why the rifle was mainly used as a club, when the ammuntion ran out.

Very plausible!

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:08 pm

Why was it nessesary to improve the MH after the Zulu War.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Littlehand.,
The Zulu War exposed a number of deficiences with the weapon and the ammuntion.
Thus, the ammuntion box closure was changed immediately post Isandlwana. The brass case of the cartridge was changed from rolled brass to a stonger drawn brass case. The overheating problem, well discussed on this forum gave rise to a leather barrel handguard modification to preserve the hands of Tommy Atkins from a sizzling hot barrel. Then a side saddle cartridge carrier was trialled. How far that eventually saw service seems to be an unknown. All of these mods were pointers to shortfalls reported in by the regiments..

regards

barry

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The men at RD fired over a hundred more rounds then those at Isandlwana, yet Chard in both his reports
makes absolutly no refrence to jamming, and he was all over the battle field, if it was a factor at isandlwana, it certainly
would have been at RD, but there's only one refrence at RD.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:24 pm

Hook reported that rifles were jamming.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

He said his did, he doesn't say everyone's was, if they were jamming all the time at Isandlwana, then they would certainly
have jammed at RD, and if that happened Chard would have reported it, he was moving though all the defenders posistions.

Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough

Barry & Littlehand

The Zulu war was not actually the catalyst for change, Europe was. The Gras, the Werndl, the Mauser, it's called an arms race,

The development took a major design turn in 1882, with the trialling of a .402' calibre Martini, with natural upgrades, as any weapon before it "keeping up with the Jones's". The nail in its coffin was the Swiss Rubin, which was used in comparison tests against it in 1886, and it was found to be outclassed in every way bar penetration, so boys pray homage to Mr James Parish Lee, even still the Lee Enfield of the next ten decades, from the Enfield Lee, the Lee Metford, the Lee Enfield, the SMLE and the No4, went through the same trials and tribulations.

Subject: Re: The Martini-Henry Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:18 pm

i think i read that the rolled brass case was designed to be less of a burden to extract after firing, hence minimise jamming.

was this a brief, failed experiment?

Subject: The Martini - Henry Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:00 am

Hi DB.
I dont see how you can come up with '' The men at RD fired over a 100 more rounds than those at Isandlwana '' ??????.
Nobody will ever know what rounds were expended by the soldiers at Isandlwana !!. I dont want to be seen as arrogant , but please , scratch

. :lol:
Cheers 90th. Very Happy

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

I think we are still missing the 60000 rounds as worked out by John., at Isandlwana.

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