Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.

Springbok and John Young (if you're watching this)
This Old Soldier may have the name of Sergt. McCabe from his imagination but the real sergt of the guard was McCaffery and we only know from Sergt Daly's letter to McCaffery's wife that McCaffery was found having 'stuck to his guard to the last'.  McCabe = McCaffery.  Old Soldier knows something that the rest of only know from Daly's letter.
As for Sergt Darkie Andrews ASC - I'm wondering if this isn't Lieut. George Andrews NNPC - and time has played tricks with Old Soldier's memory.  Do you know anything about Andrews's background in SA?  Was he a former Imperial sergt in the service of the colony, given a colonial commission?  Why 'Darkie'?  Might he have been mixed race or West Indian?  It's not impossible.
I'm trying hard with this Old Soldier but he's making it very difficult for me.  Any thoughts?
24th
He does and he doesn't.

 

"...Sgt Bryant..." - Sgt G Bryant 1/3 NNC perhaps ????

Lee
Exactly! All these snippets show he had knowledge of the personalities and knew intimate details (if true) such that he might have been with the party that returned to Isandhlwana (or knew someone who had) but there's nothing that will establish his identity for certain or corroborate his actual presence at RD. A link between Australia and Wilson (or his real name) might do it.
'Darkie' Andrews is fascinating, I've never come across this epithet before in any account. I'm trying to find out about Lieut. Andrews NNPC at my end - so far without success.

Julian, Lee
The Darkie Andrews seems to be a familiarity as Yankee Dan was. I fear it maybe a one of thing. This is an interesting man. The every where man.

Still looking.

Hi
I agree but an epithet like 'Darkie' with the possible racial connotation would be an interesting one to pursue.  Why else nickname someone 'Darkie'?
You're right of course about the everywhere man - which worries me - a bit like Zabange who was everywhere at Isandhlwana and saw everything. The annoying thing is that his titbits of information which may be true (like Daniels being American) may become disregarded in the big lie of his overall picture.

To try and put his stories into a contet:
He served with the NNC.
His rank was Sgnt major.
The places he has put himself: Sihayos kraal
The road to helpmakaar on the 22nd
The ponts during the afternoon
Between the two buildings during the fight.
Isandlwana with Black


He was working on the Hepmakaar road with the NNC when Durnford rode back (?) to the camp, at 9oclock, that's around an hour or so to late.
He had the Rocket Battery with him, not so Durnford had left to procure wagons and was fully mounted.
Some of the more glaring errors, the position of the tents, the day that Spalding left.
He saw Durnford leave the mission to ride to isandlwana, that would put him in very close proximity to the mission station.
He was at the ponts when Adendorff arrived ( this is a point he mentions Milne and 'Yankee Dan' ). I have a mental block just here as he describes Yankee Dan as a hard man. Its on record that Daniels was a very small man, possibly he would have mentioned this.
Chard statement:" I went round the position and then down to the ponts and brought up the guard of 1 sergeant and 6 men, wagons etc. No mention of NNC or their NCOs.
He states pretty emphatically that the natives bolted, with Stephenson from the road party. Not so they did in fact assist on building the barricades. They left after the mounted men had gone.
He mentions that the road to isandlwana runs straight and level for a view of 3 miles/5 kilometres. Not so Ive posted a photo taken from above the ponts, from there the view is restricted by the hill to around a kilometre. From the level of the river the view is half that.
He describes the layout of the camp at isandlwana but gets it completely wrong.
He puts himself with Black on the visit to the camp, mentioning the two smoke signals puts that as the first return in March. that patrol lead by Major Black had: 3 officers, Sergeant of the 24th, Cmd Cooper, 12 NNC officers and 10 mounted police with Dartnell.
That patrol never went further than the neck, spent 20 minutes then retired.
The descriptions around the men who left the camp and the reasons behind it are obviously here say. And is so highly detailed that a supposed failing memory shouldn't be able to recall
A possible clue to where he picked up information is that he mentions Captain Smith ( Major Smith RA) in connection with the guns and that they were spiked. There is another source that mentions spiked guns.
He has the Rocket battery bodies in the camp, pretty sure they were not located on that first trip, or the second.

Just some random thoughts to tinker with.

Hi
All very true, Springbok! Some similarities to the faked Young account (spiked guns). On the other hand - Old soldier's accounts date from 1895/7 - so there will be errors of memory. It does sound to me like someone who was in the NNC, knew the men involved, or heard it second-hand, and had been at the Drift, but had not taken part in the things he describes. We shall see what emerges.

Darkie Andrews:
Only three service corps men at iSandlwana. There is one possibly that escaped with Foley.
Again there was a Natal Native Pioneer Lt Andrews? He suvived and that's probably a very close shout.

Cheers

Hi Julian
Sorry posts crossed there, theres to much hidden info there for it to be a complete fraud. The description of the road through the Bashee for instance. Im pretty convinced that at some point he was there, its just that selective memory that niggles away.
Im taking another tack and seeing if I can fully recreate that commentary from Newspaper articles.
And there I was fully convinced I was going to spend the day doing my tax returns !   

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

There is another source that mentions spiked guns.
.

 
Frank,
 
One another source:
Letter to his father (03/02/1879) by A.J. SECRETAN (trooper / NMP).
The 22 January, A.J. SECRETAN was with the column of CHELMFORD ("in the Mangeni").
His brother Francis Louis, also a trooper in the NMP was killed in action at Isandhlwana.
 
Sources:
-"The Standard" :25/03/1879
-"The Victorian soldier in Africa" by Edward H. SPIERS (extract of the letter?) / Ed: Manchester University Press 2004
-"1879 Zulu war Forum"; Tpr F.L. SECRETAN Natal Mtd Police 12/03/2012

springbok9 wrote:

Darkie Andrews:
Again there was a Natal Native Pioneer  Lt Andrews? He suvived and that's probably a very close shout.

Cheers

 
From memory, no account let by Lt Andrews (NNP).
I don't have my copy of "England's sons" by Mister Julian Whybra at hand...
Cheers.

Frédéric

Hi Frederic
Secretan was one, but Im sure that there was a newspaper account that gave the same detail. Still looking.
Lt Andrews George Frederick, was wounded at Ulundi. No account left as you rightly say. Just looking for possibilities for 'Darkie',

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Im sure that there was a newspaper account that gave the same detail. Still looking.
Cheers

Sorry Frank, but have you seen that the letter of Secretan had been published in the journal "The Standard"?
Cheers.

Frédéric

Do your tax return - it'll free your mind!

Frederic
Thank you, do you have a copy, and/or could you give me a date it was published.
Julian
The government will only waste it/ steal it.

Cheers

Frederic
Ive managed to locate it, really do need to sort out my filing system: The Standard March 25th 1879.

Interesting comparison with the Old Soldier: "The Gunners were stabbed to a man where they stood by their two guns, the Captain himself being shot whilst in the act of spiking the last one."

Cheers

Lieut. H. C. Young was the fraudulent account author who also wrote about Smith spiking the guns.  See The Echo, 24th February 1879, reproduced in at least one British newspaper (Leicester Mercury, 1st March 1879), several New Zealand and Australian papers, and an extract from which was used in Mackinnon and Shadbolt (although in it he is referred to as“Captain Young”); its content has also been quoted as if genuine in a 2011 popular history.  In fact he went on sick leave from the 3rd Regt., N.N.C. on 21st January 1879 and was seen in Sand Spruit, Natal that same afternoon.  His fictitious story was exposed by Lieut. Higginson, his adjutant, in a letter to the Natal Mercury, 16th May 1879.  This man is not to be confused with his brother, Lieut. L. D. Young, also of the 3rd Regt., N.N.C. who was killed in action at Isandhlwana.

Julian
The interesting thing about the Secretan letter/Old Soldier is the commonality of the 'Captain', phrase.

Cheers

That's true - though Young and several others also talk about Captain Smith - is there anything else Secretan/Old Soldier have in coomon?

I think the point Im trying to make is that through various newspaper articles Old Soldier could have put together quite a story, to pad out his local knowledge.
Time for the tax man.

Cheers

I realize that and that's a good approach. I've found two Oz newspapers from 1879 March and April which carry Young's story as if genuine. I'll look for Secretan's letter down there too.

Julian Whybra wrote:

I realize that and that's a good approach.  I've found two Oz newspapers from 1879 March and April which carry Young's story as if genuine.  I'll look for Secretan's letter down there too.

Bonsoir Mister Whybra,

Please, what is "Oz"?
Sorry for this question.
I don't find this word in the dictionnary "english-french"( fluid????)
Bien cordialement

Frédéric

Frederic
It's an English colloquial short form, a term of endearment for 'Oz'tralia!

Down under ! Australia !

Julian Whybra wrote:

Frederic
It's an English colloquial short form, a term of endearment for 'Oz'tralia!

Thank you Mister Whybra.
I just know "Aussie" (and "Anzac"/australia and New Zealand/ during the WWI).
Happy to read you again on this forum.
Kind regard

Frédéric

Hi All .
Just wishing to clarify that the Guns werent spiked , Smith as we are all aware was killed virtually overlooking the
the Buffalo . There is evidence supporting this fact from Smith - Dorrien , also a colonial possibly Macdonald or similar , was killed at the same time , along with S-D's horse ! , happy to be corrected . Also when one or more of the guns were recovered after and at Ulundi I'm certain those guns were not spiked according to reports .
90th   

90th
You are correct.  That is why springbok and I have been agonizing over the Old Soldier accounts.  There's unverifiable magnificent detail in some places and big basic mistakes in what should be verifiable.  It makes the truth almost impossible to disentangle from hearsay, invention, second- or third-hand evidence, and self-preening remarks.

Hi Julian
When this was first posted by Impi I think it was , last week , I said there were some errors and when I told him so he basically said
I was putting obstacles in the way of validifying the said post !. Glad to see you and Springbok have taken it a bit further .
From what I can gather as I said to Impi , that much of what the ' Old Soldier' has posted could easily be learnt by 1897 , especially if he had a grounding in the Army or was himself friends with those that may or were involved at RD .
90th

Springy makes a good point about 'old soldier' putting together various newspaper articles to make a good story. And more or less what Gary (90th) says, he could also have taken note of gossip, tattle tattle, rumours, hearsay, etc, and if he had been out with LC and returned to RD with him, he would no doubt have gained some knowledge of the battle from those who were actually there.

It is perhaps interesting to note that "Old Soldier," (Evening News 27/4/1895), does not actually say he was one of the defenders of Rorke's Drift, and he could be seen to be simply telling a story of the battle, much the same as his later tales of the Boer War. Only in the last paragraph does he state that "...I accompanied Major Black to look for the missing colour..."

A significant point to remember in the 1895 account, bearing in mind 'Old Soldier's other articles which suggest that he had been a former NCO in the REs, is the reference to, "Yankee Dan, a very hard working old man and a N.C.O. of Lonsdales Native Contingent, who had formerly served in the Royal Engineers and was supervising a road making party..."

The more detailed Melbourne Argus account by "An old soldier," (c. 1897), however states "...I had been left behind to assist Lieutenant Chard in looking after a road making party, through having formerly served in the Royal Engineers...," and clearly has the author as a very active participant in the defence.

Broadly speaking yes. I think springbok would agree with me that Old soldier is a combination of truth, lies, hearsay from a variety of sources (not excluding the possibility that he had been in SA and even been at RD post eventum). Overall it doesn't look as though the accounts are genuine but that doesn't mean that SOME of the content isn't genuine (because he may have obtained it first hand). For example, if another source could be found that proved Daniels was an American, then that would corroborate that particular part (but not all) of Old Soldier's account. But as it stands, it's all just impossible to verify.

I think that just about sums it up.
I personaly believe he was there, after the battle. I don't think he was part of Chelmsfords column, if he was he would have had the perfect opportunity to speak with authority on the battlefield that evening. There are just to many variances with fact to give the benefit of the doubt and put it down to memory loss and advanced years. Not all, just a few key areas. But the fact he weaves some personal tit bits into his narratives still leaves that slight lingering doubt. So definitely an Irishman that's kissed the Blarney Stone.

Cheers

Or it's such a whopper that he's an Aussie who's kissed Ayers Rock!!

Back on topic!

What information is available about a draftee from Helpmakaar 25B/280 James Probert, his younger brother was with the 2/24th he is Lewis Probert 25b?1586.

Just trawling

Admin
Wise decision.

Hi Springy .
In ' The Noble 24th ' there is a James Probert 25B /280 1 /24th Pte , Enlisted at Brecon 13 /6 /74 ; Age 24 yrs . Transferred to Army Reserve prior to 16 / 11 /80 , South Africa Medal with Clasp 1879 . There are two other ' Probert's in the 2/ 24th ;
John Henry Probert 25B / 822 Pte , and as you mentioned Lewis Probert 25B / 1586 . If you want the info on them from Holme's work let me know . Lewis Probert has a letter published in Emery's ' The Red Soldier ' .
Cheers 90th   

Thanks 90th
Ive got all the basics, hoping someone can come up with where he died, is buried, lived after the war. Still chasing 'The Old Soldier"

Cheers

I thought all you AZW experts knew that Lewis Probert was, after his discharge from the army, a Police Constable in Brecon and died there in 1905.

25B/822 John Henry Probert married Harriett Elizabeth Orlopp in Brecon in 1882. She was the daughter of QM Adam Orlopp - and sister of 25B/2 Dmr John Orlopp 1/24th - killed at Isandlwana.

kenny   and how long has this information
been in the public domain? donkeys years..i can
only cite two ' experts ' who i have the utmost
confidence in! some of us have been studying the
AZW for thirty years or more, before the advent of
tim berners-lee's epoch changing invention ( up
there with the wheel, and the industrial revolution )
a most gratifying tool! which means we can now share
information at the speed of light..amazing,stupendous,
but! i feel some people are to quick to post in general
taking what they see on line as gospel. then there are
the self styled experts    Hmmm...

Kenny
Thank you: The question was however about James, now do you know where he died and is buried?

Cheers

Nothing has been found on 25B/280 James Probert after he left the army in 1880 other than he was trained as a blacksmith.

Hi Kenny
He trained as a Blacksmith before joining the army. He was in the Draft to make up the 1/24th sent down from Helpmakaar. Lewis was at the time stationed at RD having been in Chelmsfords column. This puts him in an interesting position, knowledge of RD, stories of isandlwana from Lewis, and the potential that being a blacksmith he could have been called on to help the sappers at the ponts. All circumstantial at present but interesting to follow up.
Not bad for an 'AZW' expert' huh ?
  

He wasn't too happy!

"Lance-Corporal Lewis Probert of G-Company 2/24th wrote to his family in early February, ‘we have been since the 22 January without pulling off our clothes, and we have no tents, and only one blanket and sleep in the open with our belts on."