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» Colonel W. P. Collingwood
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» (Lieut: R. F. Westmacott. 77th. Foot.)
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» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
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» Lambert, James Drummond (1835 - 3/3/1905)
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 Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.

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impi

impi

Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 41

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptySat Oct 13, 2012 8:11 pm

I was just wondering if there was a existence of respect between the Zulu and the British after Isandlwana. Considering the mutilation of the bodies of the British at Isandwana, or did the British understand why they had done what they done. I have been looking for accounts that may suggest disrespect to the dead Zulu warriors. I have read accounts where skulls were taken as trophies. Further accounts would be appricated.
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Chard1879

Chard1879

Posts : 1261
Join date : 2010-04-12

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptySun Oct 14, 2012 8:30 pm

The bones of the dead Zulu's found on the Battlefield of Ulundi, were loaded on to waggons, and taken to a bone crusher and turned into manure,
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SergioD

SergioD

Posts : 401
Join date : 2012-03-27
Age : 59
Location : London/Herts

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyMon Oct 15, 2012 3:28 pm

I read in Ron Locks Zulu |Victory the following

that ffter RD Trooper Clarke recorded

Altogether we buried 375 dead Zulus and some wounded were thrown into the grave ...

lieutenant J Maxwell in Reminisences of the Zulu war describes how on the return to Isandlwana he and his company of NNC discovered half a dozen Aulu warriors more or less unconcious due to looted rum. but by the light of a lantern some men bayoneted them to death.


Crealock (although anything he says should be taken with a very large pinch of salt IMho) mentions that there were 351 dead and 500 wounded - mm you have to assume that a large number of the wounded were dispatched.


I know that I am quoting from an author who wasnt there and i have specifically chosen quotes with notes and sources.. I dont want to get into an itllectual cat fight over primary secondary sources - I just offer these up as an indication that in the immediate aftermath of Isandlwana - the were was very little respect for the Zulus.

I think the troops respect for their courage was given after the following battles particularly ulundi and when the pain of losses at Isandlwana were in the past somewhat.

Like I said just throwing this into the discussion as an opinion not fact..

Cheers

sergio
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tasker224

tasker224

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Join date : 2010-07-30
Age : 54
Location : North London

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyMon Oct 15, 2012 7:03 pm

There are plenty of writings by men who fought the Zulus, which show an obvious admiration for their fighting qualities and bravery.
There are also photographs (on this site) of iSandlwana veterans from both sides in attendance and talking to each other at reunions. I think this shows a certain amount of mutual respect.
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littlehand

littlehand

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Age : 52
Location : Down South.

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyMon Oct 15, 2012 7:24 pm

"On 25 April they visited the battlefield of Ulundi "passing the spot where our friend and ally, King Panda, was buried. His grave was robbed by British soldiers and it is said his skull is now at Netley hospital. To my mind it was a shameful act, especially as the burying places of their kings are very sacred to the Zulus."
Unsure of the actual site of the battle Mazooku was dispatched to a nearby homestead. "Presently he returned with an old Zulu named Simpofu, who by good luck had fought in it and was able to tell us everything."
Simpofu took them to "the remains of an earthen entrenchment thrown up by our troops. Here too is the little graveyard with 12 iron crosses which stand above those who fell in the fight...not far away is another spit of which the centre has sunk in. This may have been a gun platform, or more likely - from the hollow in its middle - those Zulus who fell near the entrenchment were here collected and thrown into a pit." 95
Haggard found rusting bully beef tins and collected a pocket full of Martini-Henry cartridges. As they stood by the graves Simpofu who "had fought that day in the ranks of the Ingobamakosi Regiment, shewed us all the plan of the battle which, for the Zulus, was from the first an impossible adventure, seeing that they must advance over an open plain against an army behind an entrenchment and armed with breechloaders. What kind of courage must these people possess that it enabled them to persist in the attack until - well until they or many of them died. Simpofu told us that the only Zulu wounded attended to were those who chanced to be found by relatives who lived in the neighbourhood. The rest died where they fell. How did they die? Imagine it! Many of them, however, lived through wounds that would have killed Europeans. Thus Simpofu pointed to a scar on his neck and another beneath the shoulder, the bullet having travelled right through him. He received it at Kambula evidently fired from above, yet he was able to travel 200 miles or so and a while later fight at Ulundi."
Haggard asked Simpofu what had happened to the remains of the Zulu dead "as we saw no skeletons lying about the veld". Simpofu told him that "white men came and took them (the skeletons) away in wagons". Gibson then recalled seeing "piles of bones lying at a store in the neighbourhood, so I suppose that the end of the mortal part of those Zulus was to be ground into bone-dust for manure."

Source: Haggard.
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tasker224

tasker224

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Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyMon Oct 15, 2012 7:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Some gr8 photos showing both Zulus and white veterans at the 50th anniversary of the battle.
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Ken Gillings



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Join date : 2009-10-20
Age : 73
Location : Pinetown, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyThu Oct 25, 2012 8:14 pm

Please bear in mind that it is considered bad manners to touch the remains of anyone who is not part of your family in accordance with Zulu tradition. After Isandlwana, Nyezane, Hlobane, Gingindlovu and Ondini (Ulundi), the communities from those particular areas removed warriors who could be identified and buried them in grain pits or ant-bear holes. It was considered bad practise to handle the remains of anyone else. The same applied to the amabutho who perished in the Battle of Ncome (Blood River) in 1838. Those who were not identified were therefore left to decompose on the battlefield. Porcupines and cattle gnawed on the bones and dogs, Jackal and Hyaenas would have eaten them as well. I strongly dispute the claim that whites collected the bones and turned them into fertiliser. I have seen pieces of teeth lying at Ulundi before it became a major town and I pointed out bone fragments and teeth in the cottonfields to the owner of eTshaneni Battlefield as recently as 8 years ago, although the magistracy at Ubombo had a pathway lined with skulls from the battle in the 1920s. Msebe Valley (Zulu Civil War) is still littered with bone fragments & teeth and the local community continue planting crops in those fields.
Skeletons of both British soldier and Zulu warrior lay unburied on the slope of Ntshenteka nek between Hlobane and the Shongololo range until as recently as the early 1960s, when the mine management discovered them. They were left to comtinue slowly decomposing.
Children who lived in imizi (homesteads) below Hlobane along the general route of retreat for those fortunate enough to descend Ntshenteka nek used to use human bones as 'dolosse' as recently as the 1960s. Regards, Ken
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Ulundi

Ulundi

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Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyThu Oct 25, 2012 10:10 pm

Ken. What's a " dolosse" scratch
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Ken Gillings



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Join date : 2009-10-20
Age : 73
Location : Pinetown, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa

Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana.   Did respect exsist between the Zulu's & the British after Isandlwana. EmptyFri Oct 26, 2012 5:25 am

It is a knucklebone used by diviners, but also played with by children in the imizi (homesteads)
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