710. Pte. J. Lisbeck, 1/24th. Foot - Isandhlwana casualty

A very, very reasonably priced medal :

http://www.british-medals.co.uk/british-medals/single-campaign-medals/s-africa-1877-8-9-pte-124th-foot-killed-action-isandlwana-22-j

Subject: Pvt J. Lisbeck 710 1 / 24th Foot Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:42 pm

Hi Tasker .
Was or still is owned by a forum member if I'm not mistaken . Salute

. Agreed it's a very good price , you wont see them for anywhere near that price . I did see a couple in the last month or so where the asking price was over 9,000 GBP'S Shocked

Cheers 90th.

i suppose the discount represents the minor pin hole repair - but this doesnt stop it being aythentic.

A inexpensive way (comparatively) of acquiring an Isandlwana casualty

there is a full page in Dutton - page 242 which gives detals about Lisbeck and allso has pictures of the medal and its broaching repairs.

A cracking medal inspite/because of this.

Cheers

Sergio

BTW Rennie Alcock at British Medals is totally reliable in my opinion.

Posts : 4 Join date : 2012-12-12

I suppose another reason for the discount on this medal is that the roll says his first name is George and the medal has the initial J. It's enough to put me off forking out. £5.5k

Simon

Subject: Pte . J. Lisbeck 1 / 24th Isandlwana Casualty Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:45 am

Hi Simon .
Welcome to the forum . I dont think it matters to much if the Roll is incorrect as there are many , many mistakes in it with Initials . What you'd do if you were wanting to buy is get hold of his service papers or his Attesttation papers which give his enlistment details etc etc . I suppose if the Medal was wrongly engraved people may be reticent to pay the amount in that case.
Cheers 90th.

Posts : 4 Join date : 2012-12-12

Hi 90th - thank you for the welcome.

Surely his attestation papers don't survive. If they were not lost on the sides of the Isandlwana hill they would have been destroyed by the army because he was a casualty. Perhaps his muster rolls would shed some more light.

The roll says his name was George and the medal says he was J
I would tend to believe the roll. I've a couple of medals that don't agree to the records and its always been the medal engraver that has made the mistake. However, I'm happy to be proven wrong in this case.

All this being said there was an error somewhere along the line and this must be one of the reasons for the discount.

Simon

Subject: Pte . J. Lisbeck 1 / 24th Isandlwana Casualty Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:41 am

Hi Simon .
I'm fairly positve you could look up Lisbeck in the National Archives at Kew , I think this is where individuals are researched by the Researchers , I dont do my own research as I dont know how to go about it . I use professional researchers if need be . I know of several Isandlwana Casualties where those who have the medals have copies of the service papers , so I dont think it would be overly difficult to look up Lisbeck in the N.A at Kew . They do offer a service there as well but from memory there is a waiting list and it's expensive to use their Researchers . There has been much discussion on here regarding Lisbeck over the years , perhaps pop Lisbeck's name in the search box and see what it turns up , a copy of his service papers may even be on here . Maybe contact the seller possibly he can shed some light on this for you .
90th.

i have done a search on Lisbeck in the Army records and nothing remains.

I also had a look at the original medal roll, as 90th said it is not unusual for their to be errors in the roll and naming on medals and soldiers,

The G in the roll is written strangely and could easily be mistaken for a J by the engraver. In a way I think this makes the medal more authentic - if you were going to forge one you would lift the G of the published rolls.

whilst his service papers do not exist - page 242 of Dutton gives some brief service details lifted off the musters and census
Joined 24th 31 July 1858 at the age of 18
1861 wuth 1st depot Battalion at chatham

hope it helps - in my opinion a well priced and authentic medal - I have dealt extensively with Rennie at British medals and have found him professional, honest and fair.

Sergio Merry Christmas

Subject: Pvt J. Lisbeck 1 / 24th Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:13 am

Hi Sergio / Simon .
Yes , I've had dealings with Rennie and should've mentioned that he was always approachable and honest in my opinion .
cheers 90th.

I 3rd that. There is no question that the medal is authentic; if it wasn't Rennie would know it and would state it.
Errors on medals and rolls are not uncommon at all, and shouldn't detract from their value. Often these initials, letters and numbers are corrected and listed as "official correction".
Got to feel for his next of kin; the final insult, getting his initial wrong.
Lisbeck was one of the "old sweats" at iSandlwana and a surname like his should not be too hard to trace back thru the censuses.

Hello Gents,

I couldn't understand how many thought that the price was right, but no one jumped at Lisbeck's medal.

No to worry, as I just purchased it from Rennie. Back to Canada it comes, and I know that David is happy about that, too!

Cheers,

Bill

Well purchased Sam, an excellent buy - you won't go wrong at that price, more than fair. The best bargain in several years imo. Rennie certainly doesn't work on big margins unlike some dealers I could name Very Happy

The reason I didn't purchase this medal is that I already have a few medals to this unit, and it is not my goal to mop them all up.

As I mentioned earlier, if I had been looking for one of these, I would have snapped it up immediately back in October.

niimmm wrote:: The roll says his name was George and the medal says he was J
I would tend to believe the roll.

Not an issue - most rolls you'll find on line these days have an entry like, 710 Lisbeck, George (J on roll).
These transcription errors were pretty common back in the day when these rolls were compiled by hand and this one is obviously well known. It is all part of the medal's history, but the error is on the hand written roll, not the medal itself.
It sounds like the 6 o'clock pinhole has been professionally restored, but even so, these kinds of things would bother some collectors more than others. I know some collectors who will bin the original tatty medal ribbons and replace them with brand new ones - sacrilege! (Not me). To me, every scratch and imperfection is part of the item's history. I would far rather see an old vintage car in tatty original condition, than a restored shiny thing, where the ONLY original and authentic part on it is the aluminium chassis number plate on the engine block.

Thanks for the kind words, Tasker.....it is indeed a great buy. If I could figure how to supply the pics here, I'd show how the Roll does appear to use a "J", and not a "G". Further down the Roll, you can see the letter "C", which in no way looks similar to Lisbeck's "G". As for the pinhole restoration at the six o'clock on the rim, very well done, indeed. You'd never know unless you were told.

David has kindly e-mailed me his info on Lisbeck and another soldier, to show similarities that lead one to believe that Lisbeck was "F" Company. Thanks, David!

I've just been contacted by the owner of 1495. Pte. Sullivan, of "H" Company. He's looking to sell, and his price would be at least 8,000 pounds. As much as I'd love to have one from "H" Company, at this time I'll have to pass.

Cheers,

Bill

Subject: 710 Pte . J. Lisbeck 1 / 24th Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:15 am

Congratulations Sam and thanks for the heads up , I tend to agree with Tasker . David is a good man I've had some dealings and conversations with him over the past couple of years . He was on here quite often , but I dont think he gets on the Forum that much anymore . Salute

. You should be very happy with your purchase .

Cheers 90th. Salute

Posts : 72 Join date : 2011-02-26 Location : Scotland

Quote :: It sounds like the 6 o'clock pinhole has been professionally restored, but even so, these kinds of things would bother some collectors more than others

Yes that's the reason it will have stayed up longer, its also had a few letters re engraved not just over the plug as there was a bit of a gap between letters where there shouldn't be.

Personally doesn't bother me having a ex broached or damaged medals in my collection, the price is always better and its still the recipients but the majority of collectors don't want this.

Jager1

Thanks for your comments, Justin.

I agree with Tasker about condition. I'd rather have a worn medal, than a mint unworn medal. The original ribbon to me is very important, and would be displayed with the (uncleaned!) medal. In antique firearms parlance, I don't want a "safe queen". Regardless of the mounting by the family (and I believe that a member of the family would have worn Lisbeck's medal), it remains his issue medal, and the reconversion is a great job.

I'm doing a little extra digging, now that David has kindly supplied me with his detailed research. He mentioned that "Lisbeck" might have a German origin, and I'm about to follow the trail via the name "Lisbig".

The Scottish heritage in me says that I've acquired a "good deal". Very Happy

Thanks to all, and finally............an Isandhlwana casualty!

Now, if anyone comes across the casualty medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg (Greig on the Despatch)............. Wink

Cheers,

Bill

Aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh............

Looking at the rolls, I see that .1862 George Lloyd has the identical "J" as his Christian initial. Also in the roll, I see .268 James Lycett and .258 John Lyons ALSO having that same "J".

Let's blame the scribe who's writing up the Rolls, shall we?

Curious about that little bit of space between the "E" and "C" of "LISBECK", though. No other 1/24th with a name close to his. Ah well, once it's in my hands, I'll put a magnifier to the rim for a proper look-see.

Cheers, Bill

Posts : 72 Join date : 2011-02-26 Location : Scotland

Quote :: Curious about that little bit of space between the "E" and "C" of "LISBECK", though. No other 1/24th with a name close to his

My guess is it was probably just misspelt , perhaps Lisbeeck or such and this has just been corrected when the medal has been repaired so nothing really to worry about.

Jager1

[quote="Jager1"]

Quote :: Personally doesn't bother me having a ex broached or damaged medals in my collection, the price is always better and its still the recipients but the majority of collectors don't want this.

Jager1

I agree with Jager1 - most toy collectors would prefer a toy, in its original box, undamaged, never played with. Kind of defeats the purpose of the article's existence doesn't it?
Many medal collectors are converted coin collectors - hence the lack of soul.
I have a light brigade charger's group of 4 in my collection - one of my favourite groups. The ribbons are frayed and the medals have been knocked about by many years further service on horseback, but this is one of my favourite groups.
My own personal medals have been clanked about on many a pub/mess table and bar and are in worse state than most in my collection - and long may they be clanked!

Posts : 72 Join date : 2011-02-26 Location : Scotland

Very true about coin collectors Tasker and also about your Light Brigade group, if he was in service for many years he'd have worn them many a time and its all part of the story. I sold a Scots Greys Waterloo the other week, a lovely medal, bit polished and a few knocks but the guy had almost 30 years service after waterloo. The fact that medals are broached in the main means they mean't something to someone at one time.

Jager1

Thanks Justin. I'm not concerned about the spacing in the naming. God knows....if a scribe can mistake a "J" for a "G", then an engraver can misspell the odd name, I'm sure!

I agree with you Tasker.....I have a friend who owns an Indian Mutiny VC mini group, and the batch have all of their tatty ribbons. To his credit, he's kept the group "as is" - just the way that they were worn.

Time to go check that thread on 'naming' that I started.............................

Cheers to you both,

Bill

Posts : 190 Join date : 2011-03-16 Age : 55

Tasker the Light Brigade group sounds interesting, is the crimea medal officially impressed and who too? and what are the other 3 medals in the group? Salute

TOWERBOY wrote:: Tasker the Light Brigade group sounds interesting, is the crimea medal officially impressed and who too? and what are the other 3 medals in the group?

I will PM you.

Posts : 1 Join date : 2013-01-27

sam steele wrote:: I've just been contacted by the owner of 1495. Pte. Sullivan, of "H" Company. He's looking to sell, and his price would be at least 8,000 pounds. As much as I'd love to have one from "H" Company, at this time I'll have to pass.

Cheers,

Bill

Wonder why he wants to sell. It only changed hands a very few months ago - and only a few more months since heading abroad after it was sold by Jager1.

Anyway well done on Lisbeck, Sam.

Thanks, Tongaat.....

The present owner of Sullivan's medal is looking to liquidate his collection of Zulu War items.

Another reason why Lisbeck's medal appeals to me are the similarities between Captain George Wardell (a fellow Torontonian of mine) and Lisbeck - both born in 1840, both enlisted in 1858, and both killed the same day, and within some yards of one another.

Sullivan's medal is 2500 pounds more than Lisbeck's, but in this awkward economic climate, that's a lot of money to many collectors.

Cheers,

Bill

I would inagine that Lisbeck would be much easier to research than Sullivan also, making it more of a project. I am sure that the previous keeper of the Lisbeck medal did some extensive research on him. Salute

Yes Tasker, David sent me 6 pages of detailed research on Lisbeck and another "F Company" Private named Mann. He's delved extensively into the muster lists, and they are complete until September 1878, when the remaining info was lost at Isandhlwana 4 months later.

Sullivan may very well be "H Company", and it's interesting to see how David has shown the great similarities between Lisbeck and Mann.....making a strong case that Lisbeck was an "F Company" soldier.

I'm waiting for the medal's arrival through the post - it should be any day, now.

Cheers,

Bill

Hi Sam.
Yes , David is no doubt thorough hence the 6 pages of info he's sent you . Good luck with the medal , hopefully it arrives quite soon .
I had two arrive today ( non casualties ) so I was very happy with their arrival .
Cheers 90th. Salute

Indeed a good and interesting medal. I looked at this medal a couple of times and liked it a lot - but have causalty medals to the 1st and 2nd 24th - so didnt want to deprive other collectors with soul!!

Its a great purchase and the research should be fun.

As for 90th - two new medals - I will have to get better at looking at the lists to get there before you!!

the best I have done recently is reunite an Egyptian and Kedhives medal with a Sags to the 60th. Other than returning a medal to the family - this has to be one of the most satisfying things in medal collecting!! I bought the SAGs in 1993!!

Thanks, Sergio!

The Lisbeck medal has arrived safely!

It's a beauty. Many thanks to Rennie. I understand why you are well-thought of!

Cheers,

Bill

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