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 Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Feb 18, 2013 2:57 pm

Hi everyone

What is the regulatory armament of the musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana ...And they wore a buggleas in the british imperial infantry or a other musical instrument ?

Cheers

Pascal
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RobOats




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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 9:19 am

The NC of the time could be described as a local militia comprised of volunteers for the defence of the local community. As far as I know they did not have a band.

My Great Uncle, Bugler Fred Jackson, was the bugler for the unit at Isandlwana. The Bugler was not a musician in the strict sense since the bugle was used to convey messages to men in the field at that time.
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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 11:40 am

Hi

I have a picture of the musician C.Scott (a trumpeter!?) of the Natal Carbineers, killed at Issandhlwana, but distinguishes only his uniform, not his musical instrument (trumpet or buggle?) not its equipment or not his weapons and that is what I need to see ...

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 12:34 pm

Pascal,

If you look again at the photograph at the Scott brothers - by the way only Frederick was killed at Isandlwana - you can clearly see that Trumpeter C. Scott is armed with a holstered revolver suspended across his body from right shoulder to left hip. He holds his trumpet (not a bugle) in his right hand.

He carries no other obvious weapons on his person, unlike his brothers: Frederick is armed with a revolver and sword, whilst Dan is wearing a slung carbine.

There was article in 'Military Modelling' some years back by Ian Castle which was illustrated and showed all the equipment by the various ranks of the Natal carbineers.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 1:39 pm

'Jimu

My photo is bad but yes I can clearly see the Trumpeter C. Scott armed with a revolver in a holster across his body suspended from right shoulder to left hip by a white leather strap? or a brown leather strap?

All NC had revolvers ... But they took the bayonets of their carbines? I do not think so because they were unpopular ... Otherwise or were these bayonets scabbards ?

He holds his trumpet (not a bugle) in his right he hand.But and the fife case for his trumpet ?

He caries no other obvious weapons on his person, but in war, it was the same thing?

Only the officers had swords and sabretaches in the NC...

I do not have this item in 'Military Modelling' by Ian Castle ...

Cheers

Pascal
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 3:39 pm

Pascal,

The holster strap is brown leather, the white strap you can see is his haversack strap.

A mounted trumpeter would not use a fife, so there would be no need for a fife case, it takes two hands to play a fife, whereas only one hand is need to use the trumpet to convey the orders whilst riding a horse. In the regular British cavalry they would have worn two types of trumpet, a long and a short trumpet, judging by the instrument cords Trumpeter Scott may be wearing the same.

Personally, I would say that not all of the Natal Carbineers carried carried holstered revolvers. Look at the Buffalo Border Guard group photograph only one man is wearing a pistol holster. The Natal Carbineers were issued with new ammunition belts in December 1878 when they mustered at Pietermaritzburg. These new belts were worn one on their waist and one across their shoulder like a bandolier.

The Swinburn-Henry carbine had a Bowie knife like bayonet which would have been worn on the waist belt.

'Jimu
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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyWed Feb 20, 2013 4:30 pm

Many thanks kwajimu1879

Good, because I did not want to make their holster for instand, because I have many carabineers ...

How many trumpets with them Isandhlwana?

A mounted trumpeter use the trumpet but when the musician needs both hands on his horse , how maintaining the trumpet?

By a leather strap? How is it installed ?

The Swinburn Henry bayonet Have Been worn on the waist belt.

Which side and what color is it?

Cheers

Pascal
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Brett Hendey

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Feb 21, 2013 5:39 am

A smallpoint ........ The regiment is the Natal Carbineers, not 'Carabiniers'.

Brett
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kwajimu1879

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PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Feb 21, 2013 12:20 pm

Pascal,

I think the Natal Carbineers Trumpeters did carry both the long & the short cavalry trumpets, as Trumpeter Scott has two lots of instrument cords, which appear to be white in the photograph. One set going to the instrument in his hand, the other slung over his shoulder. The trumpets were played with just one hand, the other hand controlled the horse.

The Swinburn-Henry bayonet would have been worn on the waist belt. For a photographic example see the well-known photograph of Piet Uys, he is wearing the bayonet on his waist belt on the front right side. I think the scabbard was brown leather with brass fittings.

'Jimu

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyThu Feb 21, 2013 1:04 pm

You're great, if you know anything about all the other body of the white colonial troops, you'll have a job with me ... Salute
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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptySun Jul 07, 2013 7:18 pm

I think it very unlikely that any Swinburn Bowie Bayonets would have been issued to the Natal Carbineers. According to my information official issues were only made to the Natal Mounted Police, the Victoria Mounted Rifles and the Alexandra Mounted Rifles. A few more appear to have been dished out to others such as Piet Uys when hostilities commenced.

The fact that Natal ordered over 2000 Swinburn Carbines but only 190 bayonets speaks for itself in more ways than one! The only vague reference that I have come across concerning the bayonet's use refers to it as a "foolish thing".

Neither of my books on the Natal Carbineers which refer to their Swinburn Carbines mention the issue of an accompanying bayonet.

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Jul 08, 2013 6:54 am

Hello Mr.

Bravo and yes I do not see the interest of bayonete at the end of a carbine, which is Still too short ...

They must have daggers ...

Cheers

Pascal the Wink 
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The1stLt

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Jul 08, 2013 7:01 pm

kwajimu1879 wrote:
Pascal,

I think the Natal Carbineers Trumpeters did carry both the long & the short cavalry trumpets, as Trumpeter Scott has two lots of instrument cords, which appear to be white in the photograph.  One set going to the instrument in his hand, the other slung over his shoulder.  The trumpets were played with just one hand, the other hand controlled the horse.

The Swinburn-Henry bayonet would have been worn on the waist belt.  For a photographic example see the well-known photograph of Piet Uys, he is wearing the bayonet on his waist belt on the front right side.  I think the scabbard was brown leather with brass fittings.






'Jimu



Pascal I'm sending along a photo of a Natal Carbineer Trumperter, other than the colour of his uniform which would have been a darker blue here's what he would have appeared 1879 in action.....The 1stLt

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Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana   Musicians of the Natal Carabiniers at Isandhlwana EmptyMon Jul 08, 2013 9:18 pm

good evening

Thank you it's too great, it's exactly what I needed!

Cheers

Pascal the Wink 
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