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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Before the reforms...

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PostSubject: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 7:59 am

Hi all

Before the reforms of 1872, British soldiers were of better quality than they after ...?

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.    Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 12:16 pm

Hi Rascal.

British soldiers have always been (and always will be) great quality, however, on the other hand, since the mad cap days of the mid 60s, I am sorry to say that the quality of the British people has taken a nose dive, and this went from bad to worse during the 70s, 80s, 90s, etc, and this downward spiral continues into the present time. Standards have fallen so low that I don't think they could get much lower, manners and politeness have gone down the river along with care and responsibility, dress sense and looking smart is a thing of the past, trainers have replaced shoes, jeans have replaced trousers, hoodies and baggy tops have replaced blazers and jackets, looking smart has now been replaced by looking like you have been dragged through a hedge backwards, and I don't think some blokes know what lather and a razor are, they seem to think that looking like the prisoner of devils island make them look macho, when in actual fact, they look like a hoard of unkempt bedraggled oafs. Manliness has been replaced by loutishness, cleanliness has been replaced by scruffiness, behaving like a gentleman has been replaced by behaving like a complete bounder, manners have been replaced by abuse, politeness has been replaced by ridicule, and common sense has been replaced by political correctness. Doing things for others out of kindness has now been replaced by getting all the money you can out of them for doing next to nothing, and helping someone out has now been replaced by making their life a misery, oh! what a wonderful place we live in No No No

Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7580
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 12:18 pm

Didnt know you lived in Cape Town Martin? agree
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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Location : Lancashire, England.

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 12:34 pm

:p;: :p;: :p;:

Nice one springy.

No need to come to Cape Town mate, it's bad enough round these parts.

What used to be a nice place is now more like Dumpsville.

Hope you are keeping well mate.

Salute
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90th

90th

Posts : 10131
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Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Before the reforms ..   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 12:52 pm

Hi Martin.
I'm afraid it isnt just happening where you are or for that matter in Capetown , its the same out here to mate . I'm afraid
it's a sign of the times , and its been heading this way for a while now . Manners do seem to have taken a back seat .
People nowadays have no patience, and always seem , to be out to get what they can, for as little as they can ! .
Cheers 90th. Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 1:21 pm

Hi Martin of the eternal 24 th

It is the same everywhere, look at the state of France, since 1968, a disaster ...

The disappearance of patriarchy, decolonization, the comospolitisme and metissage, abandonment of patriotism confused with nationalism, united europe accelerates the degenerecence of the old peoples of the europe on all plans.

But at least in France, there are any ultra-nationalist political parties who are trying to reverse the trend, which is not the case in England ...

Thing that amaze me always, when you know the British patriotism in the past...

What is missing in Great - Britain , is a third party who desires to see the Great - Britain stop being the poodle of the United States and Great - Britain back to what what was before the Second World War. ..

It exists in France and if the economic crisis continued, they take power and then it will be the big washing in France ...

If British subjects of Queen Victoria returned from our days on earth, in England, they become crazy ... Sad

In any case, your post is a cry from the heart, you must have big on potato ... Sad Sad Sad

Ps: Some thought after Isandhlwana, the reform of 1872 is the main reason the defeat, that the reason for this topic ...

Best regards my dear Martin

Pascal The Ignoble Rascal :p;:
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 1:44 pm

Hi 90th me old Wombat, :p;:

Yes, I am afraid that the world we knew is falling apart rapidly.

You are right about folk out to get all that they can, for as little as they can, pure selfishness and greed.

It really makes me angry looking back at old pictures of how things used to be compared to today, and they have the nerve to call it progression, it's more like regression in some cases.

Hope you are well mate.

Salute
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 2:03 pm

Hi Rascal.

Yes, I have ofted said that if our ancestors could ever come back and see the state of this country today, they would think that we had been attacked and taken over by a conquering invader, which in a round about way we have, and what is more, we have gone down without putting up much of a scrap (which is not like the British at all). You are right Pascal, we could do with more patriotism in this country today, this once great country used to be called fortress Britain, it now seems to be more like a wendy house than a fortress.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyWed Apr 03, 2013 2:48 pm

Martin

In France, people are increasingly separated, they want to be with people of the same ethnic origin and social class ...

In 2014, there will be municipal elections, some want to take the opportunity to reconquer their country, France from the inside and make a lot of small villages well Gauls (such as Asterix Very Happy )

Brittany was invaded by the retreating British, and the French who abandon the "Ile de France" (region of Paris ), because she is African ...

Indeed in Brittany, there is no large cities, few jobs and the weather is terrible especially for Africans, they look especially large cities and a milder climate ...

Globalism and capitalism are largely responsible ...

Finally I do not care I am a Breton by the blood and for me French or African in my Brittany it is the same couillonade...

When you begin to liberate Britain by creating a nationalist political parties?

If the economic crisis continues, France is saved ...

Ps: Some thought after Isandhlwana, the reform of 1872 is the main reason the defeat, that the reason for this topic ...


Cheers

Pascal

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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyThu Apr 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Hi Pascal.

I think that the Cardwell reforms were mostly ok for the British Army, for instance, it stopped all the La De Da and Well to Do, posh, well off, toffy nosed plonkers from buying a commission, they had to earn it on merit.

It also allowed many men to join up in their own preferred and 'local' regiment with the 'localisation scheme', rather than enlist for general service and be drafted into any regiment regardless of their own preferences. It also enabled two battalions to be formed, one serving abroad while the other served at home, and most local militia's then became the third battalion of the regiment.

The complications began when Childers (along with others), got involved and started making further reforms which came to the surface in 1881, these further reforms caused some 'local' regiments to be moved many miles away from their 'locality', and in some cases, even moved to a foreign country from their natural homeland, for instance, the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment being a prime example.

So although Cardwell's reforms did help a great deal, I think the Childers reforms that followed were the fly in the ointment, as they caused some regiments to be moved many miles from their locality, and, in one case in particular, even from its natural homeland.

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyThu Apr 04, 2013 2:19 pm

Hi Martin

Yes Childers begins the misery of the british infantry...

The regimental names are changed,giving the impression that they have disappeared ... ...

For uniforms is also ugliness and injustice happens because some parts of Great - Britain does not even have the right to their distinctive color on their uniforms.

Nevertheless on many books about this war, it is sometimes said that the reform of Cardwell has lowered the quality of soldiers causing the massacre of Isandhlwana ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

Posts : 2522
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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyThu Apr 04, 2013 5:07 pm

Hi Rascal.

Yes, I see what you mean. The old regimental names were changed, like you say, giving the impression that they had never existed, and this is what happened in the case of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment. The old regimental line numbers had also been officially ended in 1881, and officially only the new name was supposed to be used, however, many regiments unofficially continued to use these old numbers, thereby adding to the confusion that the new regimental name still had the old regimental line number, which it officially hadn't.

With the official ending of the old regimental line numbers and names in 1881, it was virtually a 'new' regiment that was created by these reforms, and even though most of the men were the same, they had not actually 'signed up' in that 'new' regiment, they had 'signed up' in the old one, and that is one of the reasons why the old numbers (and in some cases the old names) lived on unofficially.

In a way, it would have been better for these reforms to have 'retired' the old regiments in 1881 and started again with 'new' ones, that way, all the old regiments could have retired gracefully with all their honour and glory intact, and their names and numbers could have lived for ever more, and let the virtually 'new' regiments fight for and earn their own honour and glory without stealing the thunder from its predecessor and feeding off the glorious past of the old regiments pre 1881.

Pascal, can you name a few of these books that blame the Cardwell reforms for lowering the quality of soldiers and cauising the massacre at iSandlwana?

Best regards Pascalious das Rascalious, :p;:

Salute
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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyThu Apr 04, 2013 6:35 pm

Hi Martinious of the eternalious twentyous fourthious :p;:


I know that among all the excuses that we wanted to find the disaster, this one has served many ...

Exemple page 11 of the elite n°32:

The Move attracted considerable criticism on the ground that it replaced toughened veterans in the ranks with inexperienced youngsters,and it is interessing to note that experience in the zulu war tend to bear this out.

Many observers were struck by the youth of the short- service men , particularly those sent out after Isandhlwana,who seemed to have been rather too impressedby the zulus'fearsome reputation ,and who remained prone to false alarm ,particulary at night.Such alarms were not only wearing on the nerves ; they could be dangerous ,and on more than oneoccasion night piquets were mistaken for the enemy,and shot.

So it is rather the battalions arriving reinforcements that are affected by the reforms ofCardwell...

And page 11 of the same book:

The 1/24 th had been sent overseas in 1867 ,and had arrived at the Cape from Gibraltar in 1875 .Most of his men had enlisted under the old long-service system and,although nearly half of them were replaced by drafts from home before the start of the zulu war,as many as 80% of its NCO's remained ,and company photographs show a large member of men with Long Service and Good Conduct stripes.

I possed only books on uniforms, but I'm sure I often read that in the the past in ordinary books on the zulu war, others members of the forum must have books on this subject ...

The first criticism of the reform of Cardwell appear after Isandhlwana, but they were not substantiated as to Isandhlwana:

First Battalion of the 24 th

One third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th were committed before 1870, and with them , the majority (80 %) of the NCO's.

Another third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th committed themselves in 1874.

The last third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th committed themselves between 1874 and June 1877.

Second battalion of the 24 th

10% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves before 1872.

30% of soldiers of the 2/24 th de1872 committed themselves in 1874.

20% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves in 1875 and 1876.

40% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves in 1877.

So the young soldiers of the regiment had 18 months of service minimun ...

Cardwell reforms had not damaged the 24th.


In the elite 32, it is said that"half of them were replaced by drafts from home before the start of the zulu war".

This was not what was explained above !

One half of the soldiers of the 24th were novices, yes or no ?

Cons by which companies present at Isandhlwana had military experience, gained across the Xhosa in 1877 - 1878 ?Because there may be soldiers at Isandhlwana had never fought the Xhosa in 1877-1878.

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal

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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Before the reforms.   Before the reforms... EmptyFri Apr 05, 2013 2:17 pm

Hi Pascal.

I have not got the book you mention (Elite No 32), so cannot really comment on it, however, I know that Ian Knight makes much mention of the men of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment in his books, one in particular I can think of is, 'A Companion to the Anglo-Zulu War'.

It's a very good book, and in it he explains that neither of the battalions of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment had ever been to Brecon prior to the outbreak of the war, so it would appear that most of the men of both battalions were seasoned men, especially those of the 1st Battalion, who would most likely be the long service men. Ian does say that replacements for the losses at iSandlwana were hurried out from no fewer than eleven line battalions, so many of these men would have been seasoned men and not likely to have been raw recruits fresh from training, although some younger lads may have been recruited amongst them, and no doubt the older seasoned men would have tried to put the skids under the younger lads by telling them all sorts of tales about what the zulu's would do to them if they caught them, and this would have lead to the false alarms given by these impressionable younger lads that you mention in your post.

All in all, I would say that the men of the 1st battalion 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment were well seasoned, hard, tough blokes, and that after they were destroyed in the massacre at iSandlwana, they would have been hurredly replaced by men of a similar type and quality from the other eleven line battalions, but that inevitably there would have been an element of the younger and more impressionable lads amongst them, but these lads would have soon gained the experience by learning from the more seasoned, hardened men that were with them.

Best regards Rascalious.

Martinious the Lancastrianious. :p;:

Salute

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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptyFri Apr 05, 2013 2:52 pm

Hi Martinious the Lancastrianious.

AfterJulian the 24 th at Isandhlwana is composed of old soldiers :

First Battalion of the 24 th

One third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th were committed before 1870, and with them , the majority (80 %) of the NCO's.

Another third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th committed themselves in 1874.

The last third of the soldiers of the 1/24 th committed themselves between 1874 and June 1877.

Second battalion of the 24 th

10% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves before 1872.

30% of soldiers of the 2/24 th de1872 committed themselves in 1874.

20% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves in 1875 and 1876.

40% of soldiers of the 2/24 th committed themselves in 1877.

So the young soldiers of the regiment had 18 months of service minimun ...

Cardwell reforms had not damaged the 24th.


After Ian Knigt in the Elite No. 32 page 11, the 24 th at Isandhlwana is not composed of old soldiers :


The 1/24 th had been sent overseas in 1867 ,and had arrived at the Cape from Gibraltar in 1875 .Most of his men had enlisted under the old long-service system and,although nearly half of them were replaced by drafts from home before the start of the zulu war,as many as 80% of its NCO's remained ,and company photographs show a large member of men with Long Service and Good Conduct stripes.

So we need to know! Good if after Julian the younger soldiers at Isandhlwana had 18 months of service, how many soldiersof the companies at Isandhlwana had a experience of the combat ?(Only in front of the Xhosa) I wonder this because there may be many soldiers with many years of service in each army and they have never fought ...We call theses soldiers this the public servants

Should know the history of the soldiers of the companies of Isandhlwana during the 9th Cap War.

Bestious regardious Martinious the Lancastrianious

Pascalious the Rascalious of Bretagnious



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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptySat Apr 06, 2013 7:31 am

So Martinious the Lancastrianious.

Who is telling the truth? Julian or Ian ?

Cheers

Pascalious the Rascalious of Bretagnious

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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptySat Apr 06, 2013 11:19 am

You need to study mo
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PostSubject: Re: Before the reforms...   Before the reforms... EmptySat Apr 06, 2013 11:36 am

You need to study mo Yes In another life, I might be the time Salute
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