Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

But it's because of letters like this, that issues as to who was where become confusing. He clearly is stating that he had never seen such a sight, a term use by quite a few, who had claimed to have been at Isandlwana. In some respects it could be taken that he was with Chelmsford Column, and one of those who returned to Isandlwana.

Julian. Who has the final say, as to whether he is added to the roll.


Tasker you swing all over the place, always trying to impress the Historians.

impi wrote:

tasker224 wrote:

littlehand wrote:

Quote :

Where is this Bible, no one to my knowledge has seen it... Its no good saying they have seen it, an image will need to be posted

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Before any one else jumps in, how do we know this aint forged Littlehand?

And this is not back tracking...

Try and see the irony! Try! :p;:

Tasker, over and out

Impi. This was e-mailed to me by a suspended member. It was originally posted Mike Snook, on another forum, but in connection with the same topic. And being a serving officer in the regiment he should know. So I’m assuming until this has been done, he can’t officially be added to the roll.

Quote :

“Such matters would rest with the descendant regiment, on the basis of the best historical advice it can obtain. That would undoubtedly be channelled through Martin. (He's referring to Major Everett) Maybe he should convene a panel of wise men to arbitrate the case!!”

Is it really known how many defenders were actually at Rorke's Drift, or are we going to see others popping up every now and then. It does appear that record keeping back in the day, wasn't high priority. Am I correct in saying there are two RD Roll calls made at various dates in History?
“Chard”- or possibly “Cantwell” & “Bourne”

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Which one is Jenkins

24th. Pte Jenkins' family believe he can be seen firing through a barricade of sacks as Zulus battle to take the compound.
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I'm sure i have seen a photo of the Butler Painting deplicing and naming the defenders in the painting...

Thanks Ulundi..

If that is correct, I would say it would be near impossible for anyone to identify a relative from that image. But that's my opinion.

Agree

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Rorke's Drift By Adrian Greaves

Confirmation of the Jenkins KIA [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Old Historian2

Quote :

Am I correct in saying there are two RD Roll calls made at various dates in History?
“Chard”- or possibly “Cantwell” & “Bourne”

Its appears "Dunbar" made one

Chards Roll, Men of the 1/24th Regiment were present:
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Two Jenkins. One killed at Isandlwana (Confirmed) The other Killed RD.

Blimey, always something going on. That Bible looks fake.

Hi All

Just for information Adrian Greaves who runs the AZWHS and myself we meet up three sometimes four times a week to discuss issues like this one - at the moment we have several other issues on the go that we are looking into. There is not a day goes by when we do not have enquiries running and waiting for answers to come back including those from South Africa - this is one of the reasons for our regular get togethers. In all cases we are trying to get at the truth and when we think we have suceeded then we go live with it and not before.
Adrian and I have been out doing talks, writing books and all of the proceeds go into the Rorke's Drift community. Adrian unfortunately is not doing anymore talks so as I slow down on the day job I will be going out on talks etc to keep the flow of support going to the community.
A number of you will know that we also put on exhibitions and there have been a number of them. We are working on another Anglo Zulu War exhibition at the moment having just done a Boer War exhibition in Tenterden.
On this particular thread if I do not post for a few days do not think that we have gone cold on it. Adrian and I are meeting up tonight to start composing the article on this topic that will be going into the next AZWHS journal.

Regards
David

Accordin to the northeast medal roll. Both the Jenkings named on the Chard roll were both killed at Isandlwana.

Jenkins, Jas.  841
Jenkins, W.  1083

Is it not possible that David Jenkings was out with Chelmsford, and returned with him to RD the next morning. That would account for the letter to father which gives some indication that he had seen the dead at Isandlwana. What we need to know, is from what roll call did the sisters of mercy issue the bibles.
We know that Chards roll as many errors, leaving a margin of error with. Reference to the issuing of The BIble to David Jenkings.

According to the RDVC roll, 841 Jenkins was killed at Rorke's Drift.

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It does need to be updated however to include Pte David Jenkins.

Perhaps Julian can get this omission sorted?

Julian wrote! My replies high-lighted.

"Is it an assumption that a man named Jenkins was seen in the hospital (and died there) and a man named Jenkins was seen afterwards at the wall by Chard himself? No. It's a fact.
How do you know the Jenkins seen with Chard wasn't prior to Jenkins dying.

Is it an assumption that Lady Butler named a drawing Jenkins? No. It's a fact.
Pte Jenkins' family believe its him, not fact

Is it an assumption that Jenkins with other survivors was introduced to the King? No. It's a fact.
Pte Jenkins family says "Maybe" Not fact.

Is it an assumption that the name Jenkins appears on the 'Chard' Roll TWICE? No. It's a fact.
But both of the Jenkins on roll were KIA Isandlwana

Is it an assumption that on the occasions that he was 'paraded' with other RD participants that no-one exposed him as a fraud? No. It's a fact.
There is nothing relating to this anywhere, that I can find. The only ones paraded were those who were awarded the VC. I would happily be corrected if you could provide evidence to substantiate this. 

bill cainan wrote:

All

We have in our archives "The Records of the 1/24th 1689-1905 and 2/24th 1804-1813". this is essentially a handwritten daily diary.

In 1879 there is the following entry:

"At the gallant defence of Rorke's Drift under Lieuts Bromhead & Chard, the following men of the 1/24th Regiment were present:

Sergeant E Wilson
Private P Desmond
Private Nichols
Private D Horrigan
Private D Jenkins
Private Paton
Private Beckitt
Private W Roy
Private W Waters


Notes:
Paton = Payton
Beckitt = Beckett

So, with regard to Pte D Jenkins, there you have it. I do realise that this entry could raise questions about other men. What I would say to that, is read Julian's excellent "England's Sons" for the latest position.

Bill

This is the clincher, isn't it? What other primary evidence is needed?
I would suggest that anyone who thinks the Curator of the museum of the Royal Welsh in Brecon is pulling our plonkers over this and feels the need to see the diary entry for themselves, really needs to go to the museum in Brecon.Bill has invited you to do so and promised you a warm welcome!
I went to Brecon last year, but I will be making an effort to meet Bill should I be in the area and have the chance to go this year.

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This is the clincher, isn't it? What other primary evidence is needed

Absolutely. Which will lead us to having to makeup our own minds, based on because, Julian Whybra says it's correct. Julian has always maintained a healthy debate about using primary sources, and the importance of doing so. But in this case he has failed to provide any such marterial.

Tasker. Those names in your last post, how does that differ from the chard roll you have posted.

impi wrote:

Quote :

According to the RDVC roll, 841 Jenkins was killed at Rorke's Drift.

I saw that, but they have been adding, changing names to suit. It's easy to say that Chards Roll is incorrect 134 years on. But I still maintain, not that you will agree, but you can't have historians changing the facts to make it fit with a publication they may have written. As Julian as said it wasn't him that added David Jenkins it was Martin Everett. And I doub't they went down the road suggested by Mike Snook in Chard1879s post.

841 Jenkins' name is also inscribed on the memorial at RD, in KZN and is on Chard's original roll.
Do you think that these are mistakes and that the list on northeast medals' web site is more reliable? Who compiled the list on NEmedals website?
Also, I would be happy to have a go at answering your questions above, but you will find the answers to all of them on this thread and on this forum. They have been dealt with already.

impi wrote:

Tasker. Those names in your last post, how does that differ from the chard roll you have posted.

Those names were posted by Bill Cainan, not me, I was quoting. Read it. He wrote that down directly from the regimental diary that he had in front of him, not the Chard roll, which it is why it mentions D Jenkins and not the erroneous 1083 Jenkins who was killed at iSandlwana. This is a Primary Source document! It is the offifcial regimental diary. Entries were written into it on a daily basis atthe time. Go and see it if you think he is having you on - he has said he will show it to you!

Impi

1) Your questions answered:

"How do you know the Jenkins seen with Chard wasn't prior to Jenkins dying.”
Read Chard’s account.  The Jenkins anecdote occurs after the hospital had been abandoned (and therefore after James Jenkins was dead).  James Jenkins was a hospital patient who remained in the hospital not being walking wounded.

“Is it an assumption that Lady Butler named a drawing Jenkins? No. It's a fact.”  “Pte Jenkins' family believe it’s him, not fact”.
Lady Butler LABELLED a sketch ‘Jenkins’.  The sketch was used for the figure front left in her painting.

“Is it an assumption that Jenkins with other survivors was introduced to the King? No. It's a fact.” “Pte Jenkins family says "Maybe" Not fact.”
Read the contemporary newspaper articles for yourself.  Jenkins’s introduction to the king is specifically recorded as are his words verbatim.

“Is it an assumption that the name Jenkins appears on the 'Chard' Roll TWICE? No. It's a fact.”  “But both of the Jenkins on roll were KIA Isandlwana”
Not so.  James Jenkins was kia at RD; Watkin Jenkins was kia Isandhlwana.

“Is it an assumption that on the occasions that he was 'paraded' with other RD participants that no-one exposed him as a fraud? No. It's a fact.” “There is nothing relating to this anywhere, that I can find. The only ones paraded were those who were awarded the VC. I would happily be corrected if you could provide evidence to substantiate this.”
Jenkins was among those other participants sent to Lady Butler for sketching.  The other sketches are labelled Chard, Bromhead, Hitch, R Jones, W Jones.  See her ‘Sketchbook 1878’.

2) You wrote that I have consistently not provided any primary sources.  Perhaps you missed my earlier post.  I’ve reproduced it here:

Re 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins

In a letter home (in Welsh) dated 28th January 1879 published in The Merthyr Express, 22nd March 1879 and in Welsh in Y Gwladgarwr, 28th March 1879 this 1/24th G coy soldier claimed that he was “one of the ten that escaped out of the five companies” from Isandhlwana. There is no evidence to support that he was at Isandhlwana – G coy was stationed at Helpmekaar at the time - and the letter may refer simply to the 1/24th men at the Drift having escaped the massacre at the camp by dint of being at the Drift.
The letter does indicate his possible presence at Rorke’s Drift. The Times (October 1879), on his return home, records his presence there, he was in possession  of a Rorke’s Drift Ladies’ Testimonial Fund Bible (inscribed on the flyleaf), and he is also recorded in the 1/24th Record of Services as having been present at the Drift. Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 David Jenkins and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners according to a Times report. The bible and Record and are all in the RRW Museum. En route back to the Column Roy was admitted to hospital at Rorke’s Drift. Lady Butler sketched (and named) Jenkins in 1880 as a study for her painting of the defence. He was also introduced to King Edward VII as a Rorke’s Drift veteran (South Wales Daily Post, 20th July 1904; Herald of Wales, 23rd July 1904).

I have seen all the information above myself over an extended period.

3) You wrote “Jenkins was added by unauthorized personnel”.  As I keep saying to you, there are no personnel, authorized or unauthorized.  I fail to see why you do not understand plain English.

From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.

Rorke's Drift.
19 February 1879

....I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed....



Julian. You posted this on another forum.... Primary Source Its referring to 2-24/1415 Pte. Thomas Thomas

"Thomas was not at Isandhlwana and his letter cannot be relied upon in any of its comments. To quote from my England's Sons:

Quote :

2-24/1415 Pte. Thomas Thomas
This 2/24th soldier came from Ystalyfera in Wales. A letter home to his uncle and aunt from Rorke’s Drift, dated 19th February, 1879, is extant in both Welsh and English versions. They were published in Y Gwladgarwr, 18th March 1879;
YGenedl Gymreig, 24th April 1879; and in the North Wales Express, 18th April 1879. From the ambiguity of the content it could be interpreted that the writer participated in the battle of Isandhlwana and it has appeared in print as a letter from a bona fide survivor. In reality, Thomas was out with his battalion as a member of Chelmsford’s reconnaissance on the 22nd January. Thomas is either deliberately not telling the truth or, to be generous, his writing in the first person plural has been taken literally when what he actually intended to convey was the third person plural.

Now if i'm not mistaken the same newspaper published the "Jenkins" Letter. You say in the post above,

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Thomas is either deliberately not telling the truth or, to be generous, his writing in the first person plural has been taken literally when what he actually intended to convey was the third person plural

Could this not be the case with "Jenkins"

Impi. Do you think, they would have gone to all this trouble, if the evidence wasn't in favour of David Jenkins being present at Rorke's Drift... 

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Are you able to provide anything to show he wasn't at Rorke's Drift. 

The media covering this story was quite vast, if the regiment had any objections, don't you think, they would have said something at the time. 

Just something to think about....

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The media covering this story was quite vast, if the regiment had any objections, don't you think, they would have said something at the time. 

Must agree, SD doe's have a point. If they wasn't satisfied, would they have allowed the inscription on his headstone to show he was a defender at Rorke's Drift... No I don't think they would.

[quote="Chard1879"][i]From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.

Rorke's Drift.
19 February 1879

....I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the

Quote :

2-24/1415 Pte. Thomas Thomas

Could this not be the case with "Jenkins"

The contents of Jenkins' and Thomas' letters are mildly interesting, but they have no relevence or importance whatsoever in whether they were here, there or nowhere.
Neither is independent, or officially recorded evidence.
There is plenty of verifiable evidence elsewhere to prove the location of both of these soldiers on 22/1/1879.

Quote :

Must agree, SD doe's have a point. If they wasn't satisfied, would they have allowed the inscription on his headstone to show he was a defender at Rorke's Drift... No I don't think they would.

Very good point.. And checking the web, there certainly is a lot of coverage...

24th wrote.

Quote :

Must agree, SD doe's have a point. If they wasn't satisfied, would they have allowed the inscription on his headstone to show he was a defender at Rorke's Drift... No I don't think they would

.

If that's the case, can we put this chap on the roll call.
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SD thanks for the advice, I have thought about it.. Probaly best if you stuck to the fiction side of Zulu War history...

Were the documents relating to David Jenkins and Lady Bulters hand writing sent to a professional Document Examiner or was it decided the hand writing was the same, by Historians a Brecon.

I agree with David Payne.

"

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I think the recent press articles about discovering Private David Jenkins being a Rorke's Drift defender are a bit premature.(Various national newspapers 5th April)."

But was Black given a Bible!!!

Who's know Ray, they may very well find a Bible, just as Jenkins relatives did..

Impi,

Why don't you ask the lady that owns the Lady Butler painting for her opinion on the matter? As I believe the sketches are in her collection as well.

'Jimu

Jim, I would do that, if I had her contact details. I'm also looking to send a letter / Email to a member of the regiment to get their view on this, just looking for the best person to send it to... But I will find someone.

Impi,

If you know London, her London address is situated where Birdcage Walk, The Mall, Constitution Hill and Buckingham Palace Road meet. You can tell if she in if there is a flag flying from the roof of her house!

Now do know who to ask?

'Jimu

I'll give her a miss, owe her rent.... I'll stick with the regiment..

Don't want the flag flying at half mast!!

Still as you know her so well, perhaps you could ask the question instead....

Reynolds stated "The only men killed in the hospital were three, excluding a Kafir [sic] under treatment for a compound fracture of femur. Their names were Sergeant Maxfield, Private Jenkins, both unable to assist in thier escape (being debilitated by fever), and Private Adams...."

Gunner Evans, (writing in 1913), stated that his 'newest mates' in hospital at RD were 'Adams and Jenkins of the 24th Regt.'

Rev Smith stated that Jenkins was 'seized and dragged away' whilst escaping through one of the holes cut in the internal walls of the hospital.

The Times of October 1879, reported the arrival of the transport ship Egypt carrying the 1/24th, plus Chard, Reynolds...."Among the men of the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were Sergeant Wilson, Lance Corporal Roy, and Privates Desmond, Payton and Jenkins who had been to the rear with prisoners, and who returned in time to join with B company of the 2nd Battalion in the defence of Rorke's Drift."

We could speculate that the 'prisoners' were not in fact Zulus, but British soldiers who may have been on a local charge....given the known military records of both Desmond and Jenkins, perhaps they were....the prisoners !

But surely enough evidence to put two men of the 1/24th named Jenkins as present at the defence of Rorke's Drift......!!

Quote :

The Times of October 1879, reported the arrival of the transport ship Egypt carrying the 1/24th, plus Chard, Reynolds...."Among the men of the 1st Battalion of the 24th who disembarked were Sergeant Wilson, Lance Corporal Roy, and Privates Desmond, Payton and Jenkins who had been to the rear with prisoners, and who returned in time to join with B company of the 2nd Battalion in the defence of Rorke's Drift."

Possibly a silly question? But when they say "sent to the rear", where would that have been.

so where are we with this Jenkins debate .?? I would have thought that the roll by the colour Serg Bourne is the "be all end all" After all i am led to believe that he calls the roll.

so was he there or wasnt he . Chard,s a/c could be a little questionable . This is all getting too hard.

I'm happy to wait to see what David and Adrian Greaves comes back with. It's just a pity the rolls complied by the indivuals weren't the same.

Rayhun,

Frank Bourne didn't compile his roll until after he had made his appearance on "I was there..." on the BBC.

Having produced one roll, he then had to make an amended roll.

So I wouldn't place too much credence on the Frank Bourne roll, with who is or isn't included.

'Jimu

So that's on Roll we can dis-clued.

Jim. Where you say you was there, do you mean you met Frank Bourne. Or are you saying this in a joking manner?

24th,

The BBC radio programme which Frank Bourne appeared on was a series entitled "I was there..." it was an eyewitness recounting a tale in which they were involved in.

I know that one of the other episodes in the series the sinking of the Titanic, because the BBC kept that one for their archives.

'Jimu

Quote :

Where you say you was there, do you mean you met Frank Bourne.

Best one yet!!! :p;: :p;: :p;:

. I hope 24th was kidding ! :p;: :p;: :p;:
90th

bill cainan wrote:

All

We have in our archives "The Records of the 1/24th 1689-1905 and 2/24th 1804-1813". this is essentially a handwritten daily diary.

In 1879 there is the following entry:

"At the gallant defence of Rorke's Drift under Lieuts Bromhead & Chard, the following men of the 1/24th Regiment were present:

Sergeant E Wilson
Private P Desmond
Private Nichols
Private D Horrigan
Private D Jenkins
Private Paton
Private Beckitt
Private W Roy
Private W Waters


Notes:
Paton = Payton
Beckitt = Beckett

So, with regard to Pte D Jenkins, there you have it. I do realise that this entry could raise questions about other men. What I would say to that, is read Julian's excellent "England's Sons" for the latest position.

Bill

This is the clinching UNEQUIVOCAL evidence that David Jenkins was at RD, he being the only D Jenkns in the regiment.
Everything else, the roll calls that contain the second mysterious Jenkins and those that do not, are unimportant by comparison.
This is directly copied - including spelling mistakes - from the Regimental Diary of the 24th (which was written on a daily basis at the time) by the Curator of that regiment's museum who had said diary in front of him as he did so.
I would suggest that anyone who thinks the Curator of the museum of the Royal Welsh in Brecon is pulling their plonkers over this and feels the need to see the diary entry for themselves, really needs to go to the museum in Brecon. Bill has invited you to do so.

Thanks Tasker


There is of course an RD roll ion the Museum web site.

Go to "royalwelsh.org.uk"; click on "Regiment"; click on "History"; on the family tree, under 24th Regiment, click on "Anglo-Zulu War"; download "RD Roll".

We have Pte D Jenkins 1/24th on the roll.

Good luck

Bill

Excellent news.