Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

It appears, that no one can produce any evidence that's puts Pte David Jenkins at Rorkes Drift. Julian states he is going to provide further information, in about six weeks. Would it not be better to wait and see what he comes up with. agree

Posts : 588 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Impi,

The DJ RD bible is identical to those awarded to B Company 2/24th - the bookplate is signed by Miss Wilkinson - and has DJ name and name inscribed on the bookplate. What we do not know is whether there was a formal presentation to the men of 1/24th who were present at RD on 22/23 January 1879 before they left Durban on 27 August 1879. It could have been on previous day (26 August) when Lt Browne and Surgeon Reynolds received their VCs at a parade of 1/24th. Alternatively the bibles for 1/24th men could have been sent to on to UK afterwards.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Kenny wrote:: Impi,

The DJ RD bible is identical to those awarded to B Company 2/24th - the bookplate is signed by Miss Wilkinson - and has DJ name and name inscribed on the bookplate. What we do not know is whether there was a formal presentation to the men of 1/24th who were present at RD on 22/23 January 1879 before they left Durban on 27 August 1879. It could have been on previous day (26 August) when Lt Browne and Surgeon Reynolds received their VCs at a parade of 1/24th. Alternatively the bibles for 1/24th men could have been sent to on to UK afterwards.

What we do not know is whether there was a formal presentation to the men of 1/24th who were present at RD on 22/23 January 1879 before they left Durban on 27 August 1879

that's correct we don't.

Pte John Williams VC who wrote…. When B Company boarded ship that very same day, each man had in his kit bag a Bible, which they would treasure for the remainder of their lives.

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

Are the whereabouts of anymore bibles know. I believe there are two at Brecon, David Jenkins being one.

Subject: Pte. David Jenkins , Forgotten survivor of RD Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:10 am

Impi.
I've never seen or heard of one of these bibles going to auction or for sale anywhere , if ALL the men in B company received one , why has there never been any conjecture or controversy in regards to others being given the bible , who didnt take part at RD. Williams may have meant that the Bibles were given only to the RD defenders , but merely stated ALL had bibles speaking as a collective . I myself have an open mind on D.Jenkins .

Posts : 588 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Impi

There are 4 RD bibles in the Brecon museum collection. They are embossed on the leather cover 'Rorke's Drift' - this suggests they were given specifically to RD men not just B Coy 2/24th. I am not sure whether there was a B Coy soldier who was not at RD. Also without checking I do not know when John Williams wrote his recollections - as you know time often plays tricks - so sometime you have to take then content these soldiers' accounts of what really happened on that day with a pinch of salt. Again it was often written by someone else who had better education.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

When did the redication take place?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

2010?

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Bill it appears you have 4 Bibles in the museum, when you get time are you able to post an image of the fly sheets inside. The bit with the defenders name on.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Bill it appears you have 4 Bibles in the museum, when you get time are you able to post an image of the fly sheets inside. The bit with the defenders name on.

Would give a clear comparison. The format must be the same.

I am sure Bill will oblige or confirm.
On the ones I have personally seen the format is exactly the same.

Posts : 249 Join date : 2013-06-01

Julian Whybra wrote:: I am sure Bill will oblige or confirm.
On the ones I have personally seen the format is exactly the same.

Either way, even if Bill were to post up photos of the fly sheets in the bibles in the museum, the ledger entry etc, would it really convince the doubters?
In any case, it would be intersting to see them, as getting to the museum to see first hand is not straightforward for all members of this forum.

Gent's can we please stop with the who posting under a pseudonyms name.
It will only lead to serious problems as some will already know?

Adrian Greaves is not a member, if he was he would be more than welcome as are any others who are in the circle of Zulu War Authors/ Historians.

Some of you may not be aware that Adrian Greave's has not been to well, so the last thing on his mind would be posting on the forum.

David Payne is who he says he is.

There are some who do not wish to be known, they rarely post but when they do it's to enhance the discussion or add information we wouldn't know about unless we spend hours researching.

But I will say, I have personally experienced, the bully on another website, and for standing up for myself was banned. That is when this website was born, and thanks to all the members it has been successful, we have members from all over the world.

So let's remember why we are here, not to argue not to assume who posting under what name. It's to remember the Anglo Zulu War of 1879 and enhance our knowledge.

Julian please, don't make accusations you can't back up. No one's cover as been blown, there was no cover to blow.

I have removed all the posts that were off topic. Hopefully the discussion can get back on track.
Salute

Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 45

Admin wrote:: I have removed all the posts that were off topic. Hopefully the discussion can get back on track.

Posts : 30 Join date : 2010-01-14

Military Notes and News
The 1st bn. 24th Regiment have now fairly well settled down in their quarters at Gosport and are enjoying a little well earned rest. His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge made a second inspection of the battalion last Friday afternoon and again took the opportunity of making a few complimentary remarks. Every man who could possibly be relieved from duty was present, the total muster being 680, and among them were Private Wilson, who escaped from Isandula, Sergeant Fitzmaurice, who was saved by Lord William Beresford on the evening preceding the battle of Ulundi, and four of the heroes of Rorke's Drift namely, Sergeant Wilson, Lance Corporal Roy, and Privates Jenkins and Peyton.

Aldershot Military Gazette 11/10/1879

That particular item is the ball breaker for the doubters. I cannot imagine that any impostor would have manage to get away with deception at a meeting like that.
The regiment has put forward a 'Jenkins' in the same group as the the rest of the 'escort party'.
There was no discent from the balance of the escort party.
640 men witnessed it.

Cheers

Posts : 249 Join date : 2013-06-01

This certainly breaks my balls, or any remaining doubts I still had!

This is a crucial piece of evidence that I had not seen before! A contemporary press report.

Is it possible for one of the more tech savvy members to post up a photo of the actual newspaper article to confirm that this press report is real? (I would just like to ensure that this ain't an early April Fool's joke)!

Together with all the other evidence, this could be the one final piece and crucial piece of evidence needed that proves that Julian Whybra, the museum staff, the Jenkins family and all the other supporters of DJ were right all the time!

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Where is it, where does in say it. scratch

Posts : 249 Join date : 2013-06-01

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Where is it, where does in say it.

I too would like to see a copy of this article to prove it is actually real!

[url=http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1879-10-11?NewspaperTitle=Aldershot%2BMilitary%2BGazette&IssueId=BL%2F0000212%2F18791011%2F&County=Hampshire%2C England][You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This is as close as I can get, the issue does exist but its going to take one of the fundies to get further.

Cheers

As you will see, this is not the only such report.

Posts : 225 Join date : 2011-09-19

Hi everyone

DAVID JENKINS DEBATE:
Because of the personal abuse and insinuations, I have decided not to contribute further to this debate. I applaud Julian for carrying on. I have made the Museum's position very clear, and no new information has been produced that would cause me to change that position.

DAVID JENKINS POLL:
I was recently looking at the "poll" on the David Jenkins issue. Unfortunately, the way the questions are put will not result in any meaningful conclusions.
The first point to note is that only 47 people voted - compare this with the 30,000+ who bought Ian Knight's "Zulu Rising" - so hardly a representative percentage.
Question 1 was "Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorke's Drift Roll of Defenders ?" There are two options - "Yes" or "No". 23 people voted yes, 2 voted no and 22 chose not to vote. So, of those who chose to vote, 92% said "yes" !!!
With the other three questions, there was no option to give either a "yes" or "no", so little conclusion can be drawn from any of them, beyond the number who chose not to vote.

IMAGES:
A number of contributors have asked me, at various times, to post various images of items in the Museum's collection. Unfortunately a lack of both time and resources would mean that this is unlikely to happen. The attitude shown by certain people on this site will also have contributed to this. We literally have thousands of items relating to the AZW, and of course my role as Regimental Museum Curator is not confined to one small period. Having said that, those of you who wish to see the relevant items would be more than welcome to visit the Museum and see them for yourself - primary research !

Bill

Posts : 30 Join date : 2010-01-14

Copies of the Aldershot Military Gazette can also be viewed via the British Newspaper Archive website

One more for the 'discussion' then

"Reward to Rorke's Drift Heroes -
The Ladies' Rorke's Drift Testimonial Fund, as a mark of recognition of the bravery displayed by the small force under Majors Chard and Bromhead in successfully repelling thousands of Zulus on the night of the 22d of January, 1879, have just presented a number of bibles to those who distinguished themselves on that memorable occasion. Among the recipients is Mr Wm Roy, Dundee, late Corporal 1-24th Regiment, who, it will be remembered, was along with a few others, decorated by the Queen with the medal for distinguished service on his return from the Zulu War. The Bible which he has received is extremely handsome, and bears in gold letters on the cover the words, 'Souvenir of Rorke's Drift, January 22-23 1879.' The fly leaf bears the inscription, 'To Wm Roy, late Corporal 1-24th Regiment, from the Ladies' Rorke's Drift Testimonial Fund.' Accompanying the Bible was a kind letter, begging acceptance of the gift as a slight token of the appreciation of the heroic defence made by our soldiers at Rorke's Drift entertained by the donors."

Dundee Courier, Saturday 5th February 1881

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

Springbok & Kopie

Yes it is there on Page 5, just as it had been written above by Sherman, earlier this morning.

If you go for the free trial get 15 credits, and it costs 5 credits to view it.

Black & white for all the doubters to read at their leisure.

'Jimu

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Dear All

I have a copy, but I have never succeeded in posting an image on the forum yet, so you will have to take my word for it !

It is worded exactly as described. So point proven.

Next case please.

Steve

Posted on behalf of Petty Officer Tom.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Two images. Pitt and Jenkins.

Why does Jenkins bible state 1st/24th. Pitts only 24th.

Why is Jenkins reg number at the top, when Pitts is on the bottom.
Why is it written Pte D Jenkins and not David.
There is no reason why the bible text should be different
.

Posts : 420 Join date : 2011-05-14

impi,

Maybe Jenkins was on the Grassy Knoll as well?

Do any other Bibles vary, if so how many? What do their inscriptions state?

To compare one to another, without introducing other examples doesn't really prove too much.

Regards,

'Jimu

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

bill cainan wrote:: Hi everyone

DAVID JENKINS DEBATE:
Because of the personal abuse and insinuations, I have decided not to contribute further to this debate. I applaud Julian for carrying on. I have made the Museum's position very clear, and no new information has been produced that would cause me to change that position.

DAVID JENKINS POLL:
I was recently looking at the "poll" on the David Jenkins issue. Unfortunately, the way the questions are put will not result in any meaningful conclusions.
The first point to note is that only 47 people voted - compare this with the 30,000+ who bought Ian Knight's "Zulu Rising" - so hardly a representative percentage.
Question 1 was "Should David Jenkins be added to the Rorke's Drift Roll of Defenders ?" There are two options - "Yes" or "No". 23 people voted yes, 2 voted no and 22 chose not to vote. So, of those who chose to vote, 92% said "yes" !!!
With the other three questions, there was no option to give either a "yes" or "no", so little conclusion can be drawn from any of them, beyond the number who chose not to vote.

IMAGES:
A number of contributors have asked me, at various times, to post various images of items in the Museum's collection. Unfortunately a lack of both time and resources would mean that this is unlikely to happen. The attitude shown by certain people on this site will also have contributed to this. We literally have thousands of items relating to the AZW, and of course my role as Regimental Museum Curator is not confined to one small period. Having said that, those of you who wish to see the relevant items would be more than welcome to visit the Museum and see them for yourself - primary research !

Bill

Jim totally agree!! But I can't find any others.

I find this all very odd, a simple request as been asked by various members.
"Post images of the Bibles at Brecon" And now certain members, don't want to get involved anymore?

Bill wrote:: "Because of the personal abuse and insinuations, I have decided not to contribute further to this debate

"

Seriously how childish is that. " If can't stand the heat keep out of the Kitchen"
I beleive all the the other Bible inscriptions will be the same as "Pitts'

Impi
There is a very simple and obvious conclusion. The bibles were presented by a group of ladies from Durban, does it not therefore make sence that the writing/dedication was done by a group rather than individual. Ergo a different handwriting and a different style.

For those who didn't see this under Announcement:
In the Jenkins's thread it was alluded to by others that I may have made reference to Adrian Greaves and may have connected him to the outburst of another forum member. In no way was this case and of course I unreservedly aopologize if any unintentional offence was caused.
Julian

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

springbok9 wrote:: Impi
There is a very simple and obvious conclusion. The bibles were presented by a group of ladies from Durban, does it not therefore make sence that the writing/dedication was done by a group rather than individual. Ergo a different handwriting and a different style.

Makes more sense, that a group of Ladies were handing out Bibles to the soldiers as they departed. Let's remember to the locals the, Defence of Rorkes Drift stopped the invasion of Natal, or so they thought.

And what do most people do when they are given a book, which allows one to enter personal detail. You fill them in yourself.

Just another possible conclusion.

Lots of possibilities really. A lot of the soldiers were illiterate and had their mates send letters home ( I believe letter writing was quite a lucrative business) so potentially the bibles were endorsed by a few soldiers.
Theres also the possibility that the ladies worked of Dunbars list and the bibles were presented st either the VC parade in Durban or even an informal ceremony at the barracks.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

springbok9 wrote:: Lots of possibilities really.

That we can agree on.

Bill's reluctance to post what Bible images he has available to him, casts more doubt on the relevance of these bibles connecting defenders to RD.

And as stated before, the Bibles could have been put into kit bags prior to disembarkation?

Bibles PUT IN kitbags? Sorry I dont believe thats possible that a group of ladies would have had access to them. Thats a story from david payne and AG that borders on the stupid.
Logistically theres far to many points against, when they didnt have to, a simple visit to the barracks would suffice. Why subtifuge, were those good ladies even then planning a campaign to confuse ?
There has still been no argument to counter the presence of Jenkins at the parade on the 11/10/1879. His being there with the other members of the 'escort group', acknowledged by a royal presence, in front of close to 700 members of the regiment totally unchallenged???

There is no coherent argument to there being two Jenkins at RD.

I would suggest leave the bible alone, the suggestions of lies, cover ups, subtefuge has got to Disneyland proportions.

Bill has indicated why he wont / cant post images. You in some wonderful examples of bad grace have indicated you wouldnt wast your time looking at them in situ, why should he respond ?

On the question of bible presentation (as distinct from Jenkins) Springbok has suggested that the Durban Ladies may have been working from the Dunbar Roll. The Dunbar Roll is a list of those at RD from the second battalion, not the first battalion (i.e. Roy and Jenkins). Most people are unaware, since it is often cut off when reproduced, that at the foot of the Dunbar Roll is a list of those invalided home early (only 2/24th RD participants) to whom, it is written, a copy of the Address would be sent.
Assuming that John Williams received his bible on the day of embarkation and had not already received it on an earlier occasion (he does not say that he unexpectedly 'found' it in his kitbag, merely that it was there and a source of pride), if the Ladies WERE working from the Dunbar and Other Rolls then it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that bibles WERE presented to the participants still present in South Africa and WERE sent to all those from BOTH battalions who had already gone home (Jenkins and Roy being among them).
I realize it is speculation and I have no evidence for it (but then no-one has produced any evidence for anything else either at this stage) but it is possible that both statements re bibles being presented AND being sent through the post are true.
P.S. I've just realized that Dunbar and Durban use the same letters. Is Fate playing a game?

Posts : 30 Join date : 2010-01-14

Given that the inscription in David Jenkins' bible also gives his Regtl. No., then clearly the Ladies must have had access/assistance to some additional information other than the 'Chard roll,' or even Dunbar list....'295 David'Jenkins not appearing on either.....

Inscription in bible awarded to Wm Bessell reads

"William Bessell Lance Corporal 24th Regt
1287 Regt No.
Signed by Annie Foster

John Williams' bible signed by Miss Wilkinson....
Charles' Robson's (was/is at RE Museum, Chatham) I believe that was signed by Annie Foster as well.

The Dunbar list was published in the Natal Colonist, 15/1/1880 being stated to be a list of those men of the 2/24th, (who had been present at the defence of Rorke's Drift), and who were present at the final 'Farewell' parade where they were each called up and presented with an envelope containing the Illuminated Address from the Mayor of Durban.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

impi wrote:: [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Two images. Pitt and Jenkins.

Why does Jenkins bible state 1st/24th. Pitts only 24th.

Why is Jenkins reg number at the top, when Pitts is on the bottom.
Why is it written Pte D Jenkins and not David.
There is no reason why the bible text should be different
.

So Sherman's example fitts in with the " Pitts" format.

Posts : 588 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon

Impi

If you read back on this thread there is posting about Pte Wm Roy in the Dundee paper which is reporting the fact that he received his bible 'through the post' as all the 1/24th defenders were back in the UK at the time that 2/24th were being fated in Durban. These bibles could have been an afterthought. They could have been sent by the Ladies in bulk from Durban to Adjutant 1/24th for onwards transmission to the defenders - the Dundee article suggests this may have been many months later.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Kenny wrote:: These bibles could have been an afterthought

Could have, there are lots of possibilities?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

Is there any copies of a 1st/24th Bible anywhere else part from David Jenkins.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 61 Location : UK

springbok9 wrote:: Bibles PUT IN kitbags? Sorry I dont believe thats possible that a group of ladies would have had access to them. Thats a story from david payne and AG that borders on the stupid.
Logistically theres far to many points against, when they didnt have to, a simple visit to the barracks would suffice. Why subtifuge, were those good ladies even then planning a campaign to confuse ?
There has still been no argument to counter the presence of Jenkins at the parade on the 11/10/1879. His being there with the other members of the 'escort group', acknowledged by a royal presence, in front of close to 700 members of the regiment totally unchallenged???

There is no coherent argument to there being two Jenkins at RD.

I would suggest leave the bible alone, the suggestions of lies, cover ups, subtefuge has got to Disneyland proportions.

Bill has indicated why he wont / cant post images. You in some wonderful examples of bad grace have indicated you wouldnt wast your time looking at them in situ, why should he respond ?

But it was poosible that the Bibles were given to those, who had access to the Kitbags.

Posts : 110 Join date : 2013-06-16

Hi this is my first post in about 4 months (GCSE's !!) I've had to get a new account.

Wasn't there an account by Chard that a Jenkins saved his life by telling him to duck to avoid a bullet ? Can't be the one in the hospital, as he wasn't on the barricades.

Cheers
DB

Subject: David Jenkins Forgotten survivor of RD Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:21 pm

Hi DB .
Welcome back , yes this has been many mentioned earlier in the discussions , there are 30 pages ! , good luck ,there is a lot to digest !
90th. Very Happy

:D

Welcome back DB. You have Been missed. Salute

See your 16 now!!

Subject: Pte David Jenkins Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:39 pm

Hi Sam, and a warm welcome back.

Like 90th says, you have a lot to digest.

Have fun, and many happy returns.

Salute

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

It appears that some think my posts relating to this topic, are influenced by Adrian Greaves. I do not know Adrian Greaves, never met Adrian Greaves. My post are my own, my own thoughts and my wording is my own. David Payne posted information which I believe are relevant to this discussion.

if members can’t appreciate I have my own mind and my own thoughts, well that’s just tough.

I still stand by my first post; those who added David Jenkins to the roll had no right to do so.

As far as I’m concerned they jump the gun. Until someone can provide concrete evidence that David Jenkins was at RD he will only remain on the made up roll in the Brecon Museum!!!

Forum member Springbok has said there are “Many Possibilities” and that is about the most useful post to date.

I have had my ass kick to many times, by Admin over the last few days, if he wants to Ban me then so be it. But I would like to remind him, he was in the same boat as me on another forum.

Gents I speak my mind, if you don’t like it then say so, don’t keep running to Admin.

I will not turn my back on a discussion, because i have been pushed into a corner (Unlike some)

DB Well Come back!!!

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Perhaps it would be better to lock this topic down!!!!! It obvious that no one really has the answer as to wether or not David Jenkins was at RD.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Impi. It's not so much you being pushed into a corner, than you pushing others into a corner.
Their reluctance to participate to a simple request posting images, tells us a lot?

» Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
» PTE DAVID JENKINS vs Pte J edmund Jenkins
» David Jenkins topic locked.