Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

As last time, the debate has shifted from whether or not Jenkins was a defender (which is proved beyond doubt) to the process, which is unimportant. There is no official roll, there is no regimental committee and no one in the descendent regiment knows as much about the research as those who have contributed here. As far as I know, Snook is the only one to have dreamed up such a thing but he seems to have made no obvious effort to bring it about. Probably because, in reality, there is no precedent for spending public money on such a thing. It ain't going to happen, and neither should it. I think Kenny had it about right - nothing to do with official committees.

Steve

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

If Mr Rees had all the information required from the museum staff, why did he find it necessary? To contact Dr Adrian Greaves. Did he have doubts on their findings.?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

If anyone tells you they know what was in the mind of someone else they are lying. Nobody can answer that question except Mr Rees surely?

Steve

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Bill wrote:: RDVC

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:14 pm Reply with quote

Hi Alan

Yes, the debate has raged on another website and on occasion got quite heated (and abusive) !

As far as the Regimental Museum is concerned we are, from the evidence available, of the opinion that he WAS there. Martin Everett did a lot of research over five years ago and that has been confirmed and added to by some recent research by Julian Whybra. Our website includes a list of defenders and we have included him on that.

However, there are those who continue to believe he was not there.

Bill

There you have it. Martin done the research, and Julian confirmed it and Bill added him to the list.

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Norman Holme 1971.

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Here's the museum roll call

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Chard79
To answer your question, as I understand it from Mr Rees, Jenkins's descendant, the contact was not made at his instigation but made the other way round.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I see IK is now saying that we cannot be 100% sure about Jenkins presence because Bourne did not include him on his 1910 roll. If anyone takes me to task for "what ifs" in the future I shall merely point them towards Mr K!

Steve

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Good point though, as the Museum roll is largely based on Chards and Bourne's rolls.

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

And Bourne of course was in the 2nd battalion and if he remembered Jenkins at all would only have met him when he arrived at RD on the 19th or 20th prior to the defence as one of six men passing through.

But why would IK prefer a Bourne 1910 roll and a 'Chard' 1929 roll to the two contemporary Smith & Waters Rolls from 1879???
It's illogical.

The museum of course did not know of the latter and had no option but to base its roll on 'Chard', Bourne Amended, and Holme's Noble 24th at the time. It is a sign of its forward thinking not to have closed the matter to subsequent research.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Why would you prefer the Bourne and Chard roll, most of your research was largely from them.?

"The original roll of honour cannot be revised. But the museum is to ensure Jenkins’ name is added to any future lists of those who fought."

Curators at the National Army Museum.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

[quote="Chard1879"]

Bill wrote:: RDVC

Posted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:14 pm Reply with quote

Hi Alan

Yes, the debate has raged on another website and on occasion got quite heated (and abusive) !

As far as the Regimental Museum is concerned we are, from the evidence available, of the opinion that he WAS there. Martin Everett did a lot of research over five years ago and that has been confirmed and added to by some recent research by Julian Whybra. Our website includes a list of defenders and we have included him on that.

However, there are those who continue to believe he was not there.

Bill

Bill says it all really. Best left at that really!!!

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

To be fair, IK says that the probable reason he is left off the 1910 roll is because (as Julian says) Bourne would not have known Jenkins. But he thinks the chance remains that there was some other reason. He admits we shall probably never know what that reason was, and that is what I have trouble with. The real task is to identify the evidence, evaluate it and reach a view (which has surely been done).

Steve

CTSG #1 3.52 post
If your post was directed at me then the answer is yes, until I found the Smith & Waters Rolls, I did. That was all there was to go on (note: Bourne Amended not Bourne). But research moves on. And now I use the Smith, Waters and Fine Arts Rolls - all contemporary.

CTSG #2 3.55 post
Not quite right. Bill's post dates from 2014. Yes, "Martin did a lot of research over five years ago" back from 2014 and "it has been confirmed by recent research by Julian" from 2013.

rusteze
I couldn't agree more. Although my essay was published in 2013, since then, I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

rusteze wrote:: To be fair, IK says that the probable reason he is left off the 1910 roll is because (as Julian says) Bourne would not have known Jenkins. But he thinks the chance remains that there was some other reason. He admits we shall probably never know what that reason was, and that is what I have trouble with. The real task is to identify the evidence, evaluate it and reach a view (which has surely been done).

Steve

Buy Julian's book. Martin done the research Julian confirm his findings Jenkins was added to list. Which part of Julian's work are your doubting. ?

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Julian Whybra wrote:: CTSG #1 3.52 post
If your post was directed at me then the answer is yes, until I found the Smith & Waters Rolls, I did. That was all there was to go on (note: Bourne Amended not Bourne). But research moves on. And now I use the Smith, Waters and Fine Arts Rolls - all contemporary.

CTSG #2 3.55 post
Not quite right. Bill's post dates from 2014. Yes, "Martin did a lot of research over five years ago" back from 2014 and "it has been confirmed by recent research by Julian" from 2013.

rusteze
I couldn't agree more. Although my essay was published in 2013, since then, I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family.

If that's the case shouldn't the Museum up-date the heading on it's roll call. As is appears to have been amended to add Jenkins.!

JW wrote:: I have found even more confirmatory articles and one other DJ letter, which I have passed on to the family

Sweeping statements like this just annoy people. why can't you tell us what the confirmatory articles are? it may help people to make up their minds.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi CTSG good to see you back in the debate. No, I don't doubt JW's work and I have his essay. My doubt is with IK who seems on the one hand to believe Jenkins was probably there but continues to harbour a doubt because Bourne left him off the 1910 roll (even though he thinks that is probably because Bourne did not know Jenkins). Academic rigour is one thing, but sitting on the fence for eternity is a tad uncomfortable.

Steve

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Julian we should have you down as a Contemporary Historian.

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

CTSG
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I AM a contemporary historian as is Ian Knight and any living historian (since we all exist in the here and now).

Re information found since my essay, I made no "sweeping statement". I merely mentioned that I'd found extra pieces of information - I doubt they would influence anyone who is still undecided. There's another DJ letter dating from June relating news since RD and lamenting the death of a friend kia and there are four additional contemporary newspaper articles in which he is mentioned as an RD survivor. There was no need to post them on the forum - there is such a thing as overkill. I have included them in the latest edition of Studies in the Zulu War Vol II as extra footnotes.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

rusteze wrote:: Hi CTSG good to see you back in the debate. No, I don't doubt JW's work and I have his essay. My doubt is with IK who seems on the one hand to believe Jenkins was probably there but continues to harbour a doubt because Bourne left him off the 1910 roll (even though he thinks that is probably because Bourne did not know Jenkins). Academic rigour is one thing, but sitting on the fence for eternity is a tad uncomfortable.

Steve

Thanks Steve, it was a hard fight but getting there. Just glad my hands have stopped shaking just a sight twitch now then, but enough to chuck a cup of tea without warning across the room.

I have always thought, a lot of the well-known Authors / Historians have steered clear of making their judgements known, possibly because they can't find anything to prove Julian's work incorrect. I wish some of them would make their views known or show something that could possibly show Jenkins could not have been there. But alas they either have nothing or are too sensible to get involved in a debate with Julian. Reputations perhaps ?

CTSG
As far as I am aware, no-one has any cause to find my work incorrect.
But I thank you for your concern.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

Julian Whybra wrote:: CTSG
I'm not sure what you mean by that. I AM a contemporary historian as is Ian Knight and any living historian (since we all exist in the here and now).

Re information found since my essay, I made no "sweeping statement". I merely mentioned that I'd found extra pieces of information - I doubt they would influence anyone who is still undecided. There's another DJ letter dating from June relating news since RD and lamenting the death of a friend kia and there are four additional contemporary newspaper articles in which he is mentioned as an RD survivor. There was no need to post them on the forum - there is such a thing as overkill. I have included them in the latest edition of Studies in the Zulu War Vol II as extra footnotes.

Julian have you ever conversed with Ian Knight or any of the other well know Historians regarding Jenkins.

Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24

My main concern with Jenkins and always has been his silence about being at Rorke’s Drift. In his letter to his father for whatever reason he tries to get them to believe he survived at the Battle of Isandlwana. The fact the defence of Rorke’s Drift would be as just a famous as Isandlwana if not more considering they were the saviours of Natal makes no sense.
Why did he not say in his letter that he was at the Mission Station Rorke’s Drift? I cannot think of any reason why he would not claim recognition. As far as I’m aware he only mentions he was at Rorke’s Drift when he was back in England away from most of the other defenders. Something isn’t quite right.

CTSG 1st post
Yes I have. But what is said in confidence remains in confidence. All I will say is that those that had read my essay agreed with me.

CTSG 2nd post
Jenkins's THIRD letter written after RD makes it very clear. In it he did not claim to have been at Isandhlwana. He was part of a prisoner escort moving from Helpmekaar to Isandhlwana that was held up at RD. Once this has been understood the misinterpretation of his SECOND letter about Isandhlwana becomes clear. He was never silent about RD and was always regarded as a defender.
My book is available from the Museum. Read it yourself.

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

Was he escorting Prisoners to Isandlwana.

Dave
No. The escort had escorted prisoners into Natal and was on its way back to rejoin the regiment. If you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject and its members in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed now and will be available shortly.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Bonjour Mr Whybra,
Good new!
Available (I.E: Vol. III) only at the shop of the Brecon Museum?
Can you tell us what is the subject of the others essays?
Regards
Frédéric

Hi Frederic
Thanks for your interest. I don't want to jump the gun (intervenir prématurément) because it was delivered to the printers on Tuesday only. The process can easily take a month. But it will be on sale at Brecon. As soon as it is available I'll post on the forum re content and availability.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Thank you very much for your answer.

I.E: One month to wait (at least) before to know the topics???, You are harsh!

Regards

Frédéric

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind (par la cruauté on arrive à la bonté).
Note how I'm trying to teach you some English expressions for use on the forum!

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

M Whybra,
This can be useful...
I searched in vain the English equivalent of these (cults) dialogues.

« Les tontons flingueurs » (dialogues by Michel Audiard) :
« Les cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnaît »

« Le pacha » (dialogues by Michel Audiard) :
« Le jour où on mettra les cons sur orbite, tu n'auras pas fini de tourner »

Regards
Frédéric

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ho! ho! Careful, we're off topic (sort of) and you will be getting your knuckles rapped for writing in French.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I am not sure to be off-topic...
But, if it's the case, I apologize to everyone.
Regards
Frédéric

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

Julian Whybra wrote:: Dave
No. The escort had escorted prisoners into Natal and was on its way back to rejoin the regiment. If you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject and its members in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed now and will be available shortly.

Why who he have been heading to Rorkes Drift / Isandlwana ?

Dave
"Why who he have been heading"? Your words are confused; I'm not sure what you're trying to ask.
As I wrote, if you want to know more about the prisoner escort I have a whole essay devoted to the subject available shortly. Support the museum.

Posts : 527 Join date : 2009-02-28

Good grief old chap, calm down. Let him get it over it. You've made your point in your book.

Just trying to find out what Dave in his excitement wanted to know!

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

Jenkins regiment was at Helpmaaker. So am i right in thinking that he would have gone from Natal to Helpmaaker. Or am I going in the wrong direction. If i am then i apologise.

Subject: Pte David Jenkins forgotten survivor of RD Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:41 pm

Dave
Helpmekaar is in Natal ! , its the last staging post before Rorke's Drift , remember many of the survivors escaped to Helpmekaar ? . Not sure of the distance as the crow flies from RD probably 6 or so miles , probably 8-10 on foot ? , Frank will know .
90th

Dave
Now I understand. So, from west to east, Helpmekaar, Rorke's Drift, Isandhlwana.

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Is this the correct distances Jenkins travelled from Natal to Helpmekaar ?

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Dave

No, you have the wrong Helpmekaar. Helpmekaar College is in Johannesburg. I can't see anybody marching that far!

Here is the one in question. Distances are pretty much as described by Gary.
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Steve

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

Thanks Steve Thanks what I thought a bit to far. Right so he was on his way back to Helpmekaar with the Escort? from Isandlwana or Rorke's Drift or from that direction.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

It's not altogether clear which direction they were going. Either taking Zulu prisoners to Helpmekaar after the Sihayo's Kraal action , or perhaps afterwards returning from Heplmekaar with some sick soldiers to the RD Hospital on the way back to Isandhlwana. JW's essay sets it all out nicely.

Steve

Posts : 747 Join date : 2009-10-18

Not sure how Julian essay sets it out nicely?
Your last post seems to be a bit confused as to where he was going and what he was doing? I'm not sure Julian would have left a lot of un-answered question like that?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Trying to help, not score points.

Steve

Dear All and especially Dave
If you read my post of yesterday at 8 am you will see that:
1. the escort was travelling eastwards, from Helpmekaar via RD in the direction of Isandhlwana.
2. the essay WILL be in volume III of Studies in the Zulu War which is being printed as I write and WILL be available very shortly via the museum.
3. the essay will be fully-annotated giving all primary sources and containing newly-found, previously-unseen, and previously-unpublished material showing the progress of the prisoner escort from its inception to the 23rd January.

Mr. Greaves
You're quite right. I don't like unanswered questions left hanging in the air.

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

Dave wrote:: Was he escorting Prisoners to Isandlwana.

Isn't that what I was asking yesterday ?

So where did Jenkins escort the prisoners to in Natal. And why would he be going in the drection of Isandlwana to join his regiment when it was at Helpmaarka. Or am I totally confused if so could someone explain in layman's terms.

Dave

Isn't that what I was asking yesterday ?
YES IT WAS.

So where did Jenkins escort the prisoners to in Natal.
HELPMEKAAR.

And why would he be going in the drection of Isandlwana to join his regiment when it was at Helpmaarka.
HIS REGIMENT WAS AT ISANDHLWANA. HE WAS RETURNING TO IT.

Or am I totally confused
IT WOULD APPEAR SO.

Posts : 1604 Join date : 2009-09-21

right deleted the first question.

So they left Helpmaker, get to Isandlwana collect the prisoners in-question, head back to Helpmaker and stop off a Rorkes Drift, with their prisoners. Because one the escort party feels ill.
So the rest remain with him.
The camp is taken at Isandlwana and they get caught up in the defence.

What happen to the Prisoners.

There's no mention that I'm aware off prisoner escort arriving at Isandlwana all leaving.

There nothing about Prisoners being escorted into RD.

If they had been Zulu's and were the ones hanged, again this would have been mentioned in the context off "The prisoners brought in by the Prision escort were hanged" but we don't know for sure if they were Zulu , British , Coloninal.

In Kris's book she says " the exact date when the journey to Helpmaker via Rorkes Drift was made is unknown" Can't quite get my head around that one.

» Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
» 259 Private Jenkins
» PTE DAVID JENKINS vs Pte J edmund Jenkins
» Who was this Soldier at Rorkes Drift.
» 25B/295 Pte. David Jenkins. Re-dedication