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 NCO's in the NNH .

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PostSubject: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 7:24 am

Hi All

Nobody has ever asked this question?

How NCO's in each troop of the NNH? And with what ranks ?

Cheers

Pascal
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 11:53 am

After a expert each NNH troop had one European lieutenant and one native induna also called ‘sergeant’ in some documents. All the rest were troopers.

Please ,nobody on this forum has other Infrmations ?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 12:58 pm

After this expert ,they had the normal three sergeant’s stripes on the right arm but they were coloured black so that they would show up on the yellow-beige corduroy uniforms.

I am not sure of the colour... Can anyone verify this somewhere ?Thank you ...
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 5:07 pm

And after this expert there was no corporals, trumpets Golden Gate handlebars, only a sergeant per troop ...
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 5:09 pm

And after this expert there was no corporals, trumpets or Guidon bearers , only a sergeant per troop ...
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John Young

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyMon Dec 09, 2013 9:56 pm

Pascal,

Stop drinking the Pernod it is playing tricks with your brain!

The izinduna in the troops were ranked not as Sergeants but as officers.  I for one have read of Troop Sergeant-Majors, as well as Sergeants.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jantje's Native Horse, September 1879.
John Young Collection

You will note that Jantje, also known as Mqundana of the amaXimba, seated 2nd from the right with the grey beard is wearing a blue officer's patrol jacket.  Also worthy of note is Trooper standing 2nd from the right in rear rank who is wearing a glengarry, to his right the Trooper is wearing what is left of a seven-button infantry or dragoon tunic.  Whereas the Trooper 6th from the right is wearing a pillbox forage cap.

Believe your own eyes, and start to disbelieve some of your 'experts'.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 3:52 am

It also appears to be a Corporal in the front row.

DSL
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 5:27 am

DSL,

Yes there is a Corporal, however he is a member of the Natal Mounted Police.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 7:35 am

Ok John no alcohol problems for decades for me,Just as I often do two things at once... Wink 

So before the reorganization suffered after Isandhwana there was 1 induna by troop with the normal three sergeant’s stripes on the right arm coloured in black,you are Daccord ?
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John Young

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 8:02 am

Pascal,

No I believe that troopers would have known who their leaders were.

Personally I haven't seen any evidence of non-commissioned officers in any the Native Horse units wearing chevrons.  If there is photographic or contemporary artwork evidence available that proves it perhaps someone could indicate where to find it.

By-the-way look at H. H. Crealock's sketch of Jantje's Horse page 12 of Ian Castle's Zulu War - Volunteers, Irregulars & Auxiliaries you can actually pick out some of the men in my photograph.

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 8:37 am

Yes John I either I have never seen, any evidence of non-commissioned officers in any the Native Horse units wearing chevrons,bizarre...
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 11:54 am

John
I was interested to read that your post saying that the 'leaders' of the NNH troops were officers.  i presume you mean that they were regarded as officers by their own men but this wouldn't have been the case among British soldiers (surely?).  I can't imagine that they would have been given any formal officer ranking (even the lowest).
Jacob, Nyanda and Hlubi's accounts of Isandhlwana all refer to themselves as 'induna' of their respective NNH troops.  Simeon Kambula is referred to as 'sergeant' (perhaps because he was a Christian among a Christian troop?).  
If you know, can you enlighten us as to what they were called officially or did it vary, I wonder, from troop to troop?
Julian


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 2:07 pm

Interesting comments.
From David Jackson;
Hill of the Sphinx, Appendix A. 1st Battalion ( 8 Coys) he goes on to list a Commandant, 8 Captains, 12 Lieutenants, plus 835 men including 35 Europeans and one would assume the Europeans were NCOs
2nd battalion (7Coys) a Commandant, 6 Captains and 15 lieutenants and 730 men with again 30 Europeans, again presumably NCOs.

There is a photo bandied around in a few books ( KZN Archives) showing a grouping of men including one NNC European NCO. There is a photo of similar ilk showing a group of NNH and NNC with a few distinctly wearing chevrons, these are all black soldiers. I have a feeling that the last time I saw those photos were in Zulu Victory.

Local General Order 227 dated 1st December 1878 ( Times of Natal 20th Dec) list a myriad of appointments to the NNc as does LGO 228 Dated 18th Dec 1878.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 2:11 pm

Sorry just spotted that you were talking of the NNH not NNC, disregard the above as the wonderings of senile mind. Except for the photo that is  Very Happy 
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 2:29 pm

I think we both need to get out more...
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 2:36 pm

Yes for the black infantrymen of the NNC they had no problems with rank chevrons ... Very Happy 

But in each infantry company of the NNC, there was by 1 black officier and 10 black NCO's
it was they who had the only firearms used by blacks in the company, these firearms acted as grade, of rank chevrons ... Question 

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 10:16 pm

Bonsoir,
On thé photo of Mister Young, it's Charlie Curll? ( front ROW / 4 from the left)
Regard
Frédéric
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John Young

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 10:32 pm

Pascal,

I have finally found a non-commissioned officer in Hlubi's Troop wearing chevrons, the only problem is the photograph dates from 1888.  See Rope of Sand photograph number 70.

I once had a copy of this photograph but disposed of it some years ago.  It is however of interest, in my opinion, Hlubi kaMota Molife like Jantje in the 1879 photograph above wears an officer's patrol jacket.  Also in the group is a trooper holding bugle.

Julian,

Just to clarify yes I did mean within the troops themselves, rather than in the broader sense.  Doesn't the word inDuna signify a position of command? In other words an officer.

In the case of the Edendale Troop wasn't Timothy the inDuna?  The field command the troop was held by Troop Sergeant-Major Simeon Nkambule supported by Sergeants Jabez Molife and Learda.

Jantje in the above photograph is wearing an officers' patrol jacket with rank insignia visible on the right of the collar.  Somehow he has purloined the uniform of an officer of field-rank, I assume that this was to indicate his status.

John Y.
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 10:58 pm

ymob wrote:
Bonsoir,
On thé photo of  Mister Young, it's Charlie Curll? ( front ROW / 4 from the left)
Regard
Frédéric

It's CHarle Curll....
I know, i am off topic!
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyTue Dec 10, 2013 11:18 pm

[quote="John Young

In the case of the Edendale Troop wasn't Timothy the inDuna?  The field command the troop was held by Troop Sergeant-Major Simeon Nkambule

John Y.[/quote]


Bonsoir Mister Young,
From memory, Simon Nkambule in January 1879 was just Sergean, not Sergeant Major.
Regard.
Frédéric
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 7:03 am

Yes John ,Julian and Frédéric , from what I read and after photos, I feel that when NNH were reorganized, they made ​​some uniformologiques libertées unlike the NNH before isandhwana ...

For example the men of the Mafunzi Corps wore a red cloth around their hats and a second field sign - a white cloth with a colored spot of an unknown color - on the left arm.

No rank insignia visible on their jackets...

What color could be this spot, red ?

Pascal
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John Young

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 8:16 am

Frédéric,

Simeon Nkambule was to my knowledge the senior ranking non-commissioned officer of the Edendale Troop, by the time of his recommendation for his D.C.M. he was being referred to as Troop Sergeant-Major. However, I notice in Forgotten Heroes Zulu & Basuto Wars... by Roy Dutton, the author has Nkambule as a Sergeant and Learda as the Troop Sergeant-Major.

Elsewhere in Who's Who in the Zulu War 1879 by Knight & Greaves state Nkambule was appointed the rank of 'sergeant major' at the time of the unit's formation.

Pascal,

Wasn't the armband worn to identify friend from foe? Given some of the mishaps that had occurred.

John Y.

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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 8:56 am

John
Without wishing to be pernickety where did you get the info from about the rankings within the Edendale Troop?
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 9:34 am

John and Julian I do not think, because Zulu on horseback were easy to recognize, and do not forget their famous colored spots on their white armbands, they can be used to recognize the various troops of the new NNH ...

So these Messieurs of the Edendale Troop, unlike those of the other troops of the NNH would have a European grading system with rank chevrons on their right arm ...

Remains to be seen what kind of rank chevrons and what color ...

And their ranks chevrons should therefore be different between a Sergeant and a Troop Sergeant-Major....

Now we know that there were at least two types of sergeants in the Edendale Troop,but no types of NCO's below these sergents ...

Men of the Edendale Troop actually were aping the whites...And because they were Christians they also required a better remuniration than other men of the NNH ...

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyWed Dec 11, 2013 7:59 pm

[quote="John Young"]Frédéric,

Simeon Nkambule was to my knowledge the senior ranking non-commissioned officer of the Edendale Troop, by the time of his recommendation for his D.C.M. he was being referred to as Troop Sergeant-Major.  However, I notice in Forgotten Heroes Zulu & Basuto Wars... by Roy Dutton, the author has Nkambule as a Sergeant and Learda as the Troop Sergeant-Major.

Elsewhere in Who's Who in the Zulu War 1879 by Knight & Greaves state Nkambule was appointed the rank of 'sergeant major' at the time of the unit's formation.

Bonsoir Mister Young,
Thanks for your answer.
I have a copy of "Who's who in the zulu war 1879" (the two volumes)
There are errors ...
For Kambula, my source is Mister Whybra (England's sons).
I have sent to you a P.M
Regards
Frédéric





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John Young

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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyThu Dec 12, 2013 4:45 am

Frédéric,

Yes you are quite correct as was Roy Dutton see the result from The National Archives:

Reference:

WO 146/1/18

Description:

Troop Serjeant Major Learda: Natal Native Horse.

Serjeant Simeon Kambula: Natal Native Horse.

Julian,

Does that answer your question?

In haste,

John Y.
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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyThu Dec 12, 2013 6:37 am

Hi John ,Julian and Frederic

And their ranks chevrons should therefore be different between a Sergeant and a Troop Sergeant-Major...?

No photos of their ranks chevrons ,only concerned may be those of the Edentale Mission ...?

Cheers

Pascal
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyThu Dec 12, 2013 10:58 am

Hi
Thank you John for the clarification re the sources.
What I've always understood is that, yes, Kambula was a TSM - BUT that was at the time he received his DCM.  He was NOT a TSM at the time of Isandhlwana.
It is also worth noting that at the time he was a TSM (and received his DCM) the 'Edendale Horse' was no longer part of the Natal Native Horse but its successor unit.
My assumption has always been that with this reorganization, new rankings were arranged and allocated which did NOT apply in January 1879.
As regards 22nd January 1879 I still have nothing on record to show anything other than Kambula being referred to as 'sergeant' within his Christian troop and the others being referred to as 'induna' within the Hlubi and Sikali troops.
Would Kambula, I wonder, have been insulted by the use of 'induna' for his ranking?
Thoughts?
(Note that I'm using capitals for emphasis not for 'shouting').


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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NCO's in  the NNH . Empty
PostSubject: Re: NCO's in the NNH .   NCO's in  the NNH . EmptyThu Dec 12, 2013 11:05 am

Then? And their ranks chevrons in all this ?
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NCO's in the NNH .
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