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Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyToday at 12:22 pm by Peter35

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» Francis Shirley Russell 14th Hussars
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» Pte John William Jones Davies
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» Zulu War to Boer war. Those who served in both.
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» Soldier: 99th Regiment
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» 1/24th Soldiers first names required
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» 2nd Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, September 1879
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyFri Feb 19, 2021 2:44 am by WeekendWarrior

» Rorke's Drift: Corp. Key, Ptes. John Jones and Lynch
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» Brave Natal Volunteer. Any ideas who he is?
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» Private Arthur Wood, 3rd Dragoon Guards.
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» Charles Edward Luard
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» Surgeon-Lieutenant-Colonel D. B. Brown.
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» Sir Henry Evelyn Wood VC, GCB, GCMG
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» The sick at Rorke's Drift
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» Zulu War Trivia and Quiz
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» The Natal Mounted Police have almost been forgotten.
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» TV tonight - Tue 9 Feb 2021
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Feb 09, 2021 5:37 pm by Kenny

» Major-General Sir Ronald Bertram Lane
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» Lt.Col. C. Tucker, Commanding Officer 80th (Staffordshire) Regiment.
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» Surgeon-Major HENRY JAGOE, M.B
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» Harts Military Lists N.L.S. Index search page numbers. A useful list.
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» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
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» DAVID FRANCIS LEWIS
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» Major F. M. E. Vibart
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» Maj. W. Gurney 91st Highlanders (Princess Louise's Argyllshire Regiment),
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» Maj-Gen Geoffrey Barton
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» Lieutenant-Colonel McWatters
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» Lieut. W. J. Fowler, 5th Bde. R.A
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» Lieutenant Charles Henry Bennett Williams. 94th Foot
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» JOHN MILLER THE SOLDIE
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» Sapper William Seaman Rushbrook
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» In search of more service papers
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» iSandlwana and Little Big Horn a direct link.
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 Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th

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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Jan 12, 2014 7:17 pm

Chard categorically states "6 members of the 1-24th" in his first report as having been survivors of the RD action.
In his second report, he goes further and names the six. One is the surviving 1083 Pte M .Jenkins, that we now all believe to have been incorrectly identified as the "wrong" Jenkins, because 1083 was killed at Isandhlwana.

Or was he?

Let's assume for a moment that Chard was not entirely the bumbling fart that so many have assumed he was.
Let us say that the Jenkins who saved his life at the wall REALLY WAS 1083 Jenkins, and Chard made no mistake in his identification.

What proof is there that 1083 Watkin Jenkins was actually killed at Isandhlwana, other than the fact that we can find little record that he is still with us after 23-1-1879, other than the Chard roll which quite clearly indicates 1083 Jenkins was alive on the 23rd.

What if after the action at RD, return to PMB etc, that he meets and falls for a nice SA girl, deserts, changes his name and lives happily ever after in Natal?
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 5:24 pm

I note no one has responded to this Q in almost 24 hours.

I apologise if this question was a remarkably stupid one, so I won't be offended if the thread is deleted Admin!
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 5:32 pm

I'll respond.  The man you seek appears in the Isandhlwana casualty return.  He no longer appears in the pay and muster rolls either - a pretty positive sign that he was no more - otherwise he'd be claiming backpay!
A more interesting but similar question involves Corp. W. Anderson of the NNC kia at RD.  There was also a Corp. W. Anderson kia at Isandhlwana.  Were they two different men?  Or was Anderson (perhaps a patient) kia at RD but his battalion commanding officer assumed he had been kia with his coy at Isandhlwana and entered him among the casualties? Were they in fact one and the same man but he was entered on both Isandhlwana and RD casualty rolls?  I've never been able to resolve this with absolute certainty.
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:07 pm

Thank you for that response Julian!

wrt Watkin Jenkins, he certainly disappears after the 22nd January. Clearly, if he had fought at and survived RD, as implied in the Chard (and other earlier rolls), we would expect to have seen him on the pay rolls etc as you say.
My question was that if those early rolls WERE correct, and he had gone AWOL soon after the defence of RD, would there be any record of that? Or would his disappearance have been assumed, much more conveniently, to have been KIA Isandhlwana?
Far fetched I know, even more so given the weight of evidence that shows the surviving Jenkins to have been David and far, far more likely that a mistake had been made in the number assigned to this survivor in the earliest roll of defenders; but just a bit of fun!
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:12 pm

wrt Cpl Anderson, a very interesting question, yes.
Are there any muster rolls, pay rolls or other records of any kind relating to the NNC of this period? Who is the leading authority on the NNC? Often if there are two people of the same name, they are usually distinguished in some way in writte records. Cheers
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 8:00 pm

Well, yes, it would have gone on his service record.  He would have been pursued as having gone AWOL but realistically there was nowhere he could go AWOL, not starting from RD or Isandhlwana.
Re Anderson - distinctions were not made in colonial records in the same way as they were in British ones.  Thompson is pretty much top dog on Africans and the NNC but the authority varies according to the colonial unit.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 8:13 pm

kopie wrote:
Thank you for that response Julian!

wrt Watkin Jenkins, he certainly disappears after the 22nd January. Clearly, if he had fought at and survived RD, as implied in the Chard (and other earlier rolls), we would expect to have seen him on the pay rolls etc as you say.
My question was that if those early rolls WERE correct, and he had gone AWOL soon after the defence of RD, would there be any record of that? Or would his disappearance have been assumed, much more conveniently, to have been KIA Isandhlwana?
Far fetched I know, even more so given the weight of evidence that shows the surviving Jenkins to have been David and far, far more likely that a mistake had been made in the number assigned to this survivor in the earliest roll of defenders; but just a bit of fun!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Good point Kopie!! Jenkins attempted to let his family believe he had been at Isandlwana?
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2415
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 10:13 am

John
How exactly? Was he clairvoyant?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2581
Join date : 2009-04-24

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 5:53 pm

John is not two different people? His name is "1083 Watkin Jenkins"
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