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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyYesterday at 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:02 pm by ADMIN

» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:52 pm by ADMIN

» Quarter-Master William London
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:32 pm by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 pm by ADMIN

» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm by ADMIN

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyThu Aug 13, 2020 7:00 pm by robert taylor

» Durnford's medical officer
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 11:36 am by SRB1965

» Charles Sparks - any information available?
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 9:23 am by Julian Whybra

» back to the future
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyWed Aug 05, 2020 1:35 pm by aussie inkosi

» NNC Officer List
Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Aug 03, 2020 1:56 pm by Ells

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 Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th

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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptySun Jan 12, 2014 7:17 pm

Chard categorically states "6 members of the 1-24th" in his first report as having been survivors of the RD action.
In his second report, he goes further and names the six. One is the surviving 1083 Pte M .Jenkins, that we now all believe to have been incorrectly identified as the "wrong" Jenkins, because 1083 was killed at Isandhlwana.

Or was he?

Let's assume for a moment that Chard was not entirely the bumbling fart that so many have assumed he was.
Let us say that the Jenkins who saved his life at the wall REALLY WAS 1083 Jenkins, and Chard made no mistake in his identification.

What proof is there that 1083 Watkin Jenkins was actually killed at Isandhlwana, other than the fact that we can find little record that he is still with us after 23-1-1879, other than the Chard roll which quite clearly indicates 1083 Jenkins was alive on the 23rd.

What if after the action at RD, return to PMB etc, that he meets and falls for a nice SA girl, deserts, changes his name and lives happily ever after in Natal?
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 5:24 pm

I note no one has responded to this Q in almost 24 hours.

I apologise if this question was a remarkably stupid one, so I won't be offended if the thread is deleted Admin!
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 5:32 pm

I'll respond.  The man you seek appears in the Isandhlwana casualty return.  He no longer appears in the pay and muster rolls either - a pretty positive sign that he was no more - otherwise he'd be claiming backpay!
A more interesting but similar question involves Corp. W. Anderson of the NNC kia at RD.  There was also a Corp. W. Anderson kia at Isandhlwana.  Were they two different men?  Or was Anderson (perhaps a patient) kia at RD but his battalion commanding officer assumed he had been kia with his coy at Isandhlwana and entered him among the casualties? Were they in fact one and the same man but he was entered on both Isandhlwana and RD casualty rolls?  I've never been able to resolve this with absolute certainty.
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:07 pm

Thank you for that response Julian!

wrt Watkin Jenkins, he certainly disappears after the 22nd January. Clearly, if he had fought at and survived RD, as implied in the Chard (and other earlier rolls), we would expect to have seen him on the pay rolls etc as you say.
My question was that if those early rolls WERE correct, and he had gone AWOL soon after the defence of RD, would there be any record of that? Or would his disappearance have been assumed, much more conveniently, to have been KIA Isandhlwana?
Far fetched I know, even more so given the weight of evidence that shows the surviving Jenkins to have been David and far, far more likely that a mistake had been made in the number assigned to this survivor in the earliest roll of defenders; but just a bit of fun!
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kopie



Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 7:12 pm

wrt Cpl Anderson, a very interesting question, yes.
Are there any muster rolls, pay rolls or other records of any kind relating to the NNC of this period? Who is the leading authority on the NNC? Often if there are two people of the same name, they are usually distinguished in some way in writte records. Cheers
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 8:00 pm

Well, yes, it would have gone on his service record.  He would have been pursued as having gone AWOL but realistically there was nowhere he could go AWOL, not starting from RD or Isandhlwana.
Re Anderson - distinctions were not made in colonial records in the same way as they were in British ones.  Thompson is pretty much top dog on Africans and the NNC but the authority varies according to the colonial unit.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyMon Jan 13, 2014 8:13 pm

kopie wrote:
Thank you for that response Julian!

wrt Watkin Jenkins, he certainly disappears after the 22nd January. Clearly, if he had fought at and survived RD, as implied in the Chard (and other earlier rolls), we would expect to have seen him on the pay rolls etc as you say.
My question was that if those early rolls WERE correct, and he had gone AWOL soon after the defence of RD, would there be any record of that? Or would his disappearance have been assumed, much more conveniently, to have been KIA Isandhlwana?
Far fetched I know, even more so given the weight of evidence that shows the surviving Jenkins to have been David and far, far more likely that a mistake had been made in the number assigned to this survivor in the earliest roll of defenders; but just a bit of fun!

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Good point Kopie!! Jenkins attempted to let his family believe he had been at Isandlwana?
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
Join date : 2011-09-12

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 10:13 am

John
How exactly? Was he clairvoyant?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
Join date : 2009-04-24

Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th Empty
PostSubject: Re: Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th   Pte 1083 Watkin Jenkins, 1-24th EmptyTue Jan 14, 2014 5:53 pm

John is not two different people? His name is "1083 Watkin Jenkins"
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