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» Looking for the medal to 1423 Pte. W. Gregg/Greig
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» 1409 Pte David Lloyd, Defender of Rorke's Drift
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» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
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» Late Father's Militaria Collection
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» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
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» Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native Contingent
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» No. 985. PTE. EDWARD READ. 2-24 Regt. (South Wales Borders).
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» Private Willis 2/24th Regiment his letter from South Africa
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» Brevet Major W.R.B. Chamberlin
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» Private 1941 Samuel MacClue / McClune 1/24th Regiment
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» Sergeant W E Warren RA - Veteran
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» Fairlie's Native Police
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» The curious tale of Cetshwayo's "gunpowder depot" and an aggressive snake
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» Lieut. B. Pohl, No. 7 Coy 1/3 Natal Native Contingent
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 Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.

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Frank Allewell
Coldsteel
Eddie
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Julian Whybra
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1879graves
Mr M. Cooper
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John Young

John Young


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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 12:32 pm

I am sorry to say this but I am finding the nationalist vitriol being espoused here as being totally off of the subject of this topic.  
Off Topic

As to the unfounded allegations of the late Sir Stanley Baker being ‘anti-English’, frankly I find them to be malicious.  In his role as a film producer he was responsible for producing a film which - in my opinion - is one of the most quintessential English films ever made The Italian Job.

Let us do our best to get this matter back on topic, and refrain from straying into what I perceive to be nationalist rhetoric.

Just my thoughts.

JY
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Eddie




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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 12:38 pm

Jgregory/Coldsteel

Seems mr jgregory enjoyed his holidays so much in Wales that he went back numerous amount of times, strange that.

Coldsteel, your views on the matter are factual in my opinion and you have a right to your views as much as anyone without having to put up with this rhetoric.
Stay on theme and debate the Zulu war.
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Eddie




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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 12:49 pm

I agree with you John, no need for it, just because a person has an opinion that goes against others beliefs doesn't deserve this rhetoric.
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jgregory




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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 3:03 pm

I notice all the comments are from the Welsh.  I think it still niggles you all that the 24th of Foot were the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment.  Anyway good luck to you all.
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Danny1960

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 6:17 pm

Deleted. Admin
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ADMIN

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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 7:02 pm

Stay on topic. Please!!
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Danny1960

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 8:11 pm

Good old censorship, not allowed to reply it’s like a dictatorship, why are my responses removed and not his ?

Danny, if you start calling other members names, then i suggest you post in the Ring section. It's not about censorship is about respect. If your not happy with that, let me know. I'm sure there are other forums that can accomodate you. Admin.
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Danny1960

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyFri May 19, 2023 8:27 pm

Deleted Admin. Post in the ring section.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 3:23 pm

Kenny.

I think you should read my posts again. I have mentioned that the regiment was moved to Brecon a few years prior to the AZW, on paper only, neither Btln had ever been there prior to the AZW.

A strong Warwickshire allegiance does not concern me at all, no matter where the men came from, even if it was only one man that came from Warwickshire, the regiment was called the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, a title it had held for the best part of 100 years, longer than any other title past or present, but because of Baker finding out that some dunderhead had moved the regiment to Brecon (on paper only), and then later, after the 1881 reforms, the regiment had lost its line number and its former title, and a new regiment was formed called the swb, he decided to make the film an almost all welsh affair (with a few English foreigners to make into nincompoops, blockheads, and drunkards). Baker, along with Endfield, made the film to make it appear that it was a welsh regiment, and therefor ensured that the gullible public would be conned into believing that the honour and glory would go to the welsh and to a regiment that did not exist during the AZW.

Baker DID NOT bring the deeds of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment to a worldwide audience, far from it, Baker brought the almost ficticious deeds of a pretend hoax welsh regiment (with a few foreigners from England in it), that did not exist at the time of the AZW to a worldwide audience, and created the myth of the welsh and the swb as being the bees knees, and deliberately omitted all mention of the regiments real name, he just used 24th so to avoid having to any mention of the English county of Warwickshire, because any mention of it would have given the show away that the regiment actually had an English county title and he didn't want to mention that did he?

No, I was not present at the prem of the film, however, my Grandad took me to watch it at the local picture house (now sadly a supermarket), and even back then he knew there was something not right about it all, you see, he always mentioned about a relative that fought in the AZW at RD, his name of course being Cooper, and he was in the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, yet the film portayed the regiment as being welsh and called the swb, which my Grandad was rather miffed about.
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jgregory




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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 4:45 pm

Mr M Cooper, well said. Absolutely right. Even the curator at Brecon will not admit it was the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment. Why not ? why keep trying to tell visitors it was the SWB.
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John Young

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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 4:46 pm

Martin,

The man you infer was a dunderhead was Edward Cardwell, 1st Viscount Cardwell, the Secretary of State for War between 9th December 1868 – 17th February 1874.  Cardwell established a number of reforms within Horse Guards, including the introduction of Brigade system which established the Depot of the 25th Brigade at Brecon.

Cardwell was far removed from the dunderhead image that you paint him with.  Cardwell reorganised the British Army.  He introduced professional standards for officers - including advancement by merit rather than purchase - and created a home reserve force, that was far better than the previous volunteer corps.  He had witnessed what had happened during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1, and created a professional regular army, supported by competent reserves, to meet any such threat to Britain’s shores.  He introduced educational standards within the ranks, he did his utmost to have flogging removed as a field-punishment, although it was still retained on “Active-Service”, hence the examples of it during the Zulu War.

Edward Cardwell - in my opinion - was no dunderhead, he was a great reformer.  It was he that sowed the seeds that Hugh Childers and Richard Haldane subsequently reaped.

Just my thoughts,

JY


Last edited by John Young on Sat May 20, 2023 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Young

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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 5:13 pm

jgregory,

Do you have a name for the Curator that you are referring to?

I am on Zoom meeting with members of the Trustees of the Museum this coming week, and will happily bring your complaint to their attention, should you wish?

JY
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 6:58 pm

Mr Cooper,

There are two separate elements under discussion – (1) real life (2) entertainment -the film ‘Zulu’.  You seem not to be able to separate them.

(1) Real Life.  The Regiment which took part the actions at Isandlwana and Rorke’s Drift have now served this country faithfully for 300+ years under numerous titles.  There courage and dedication has never been in doubt.  Changes have been forced upon them by the War Office (MoD) but they have adapted and I believe have become stronger for it.
(2) The film ‘Zulu’.  As I said in a previous post, Sir Stanley Baker had the good manners to apologised to the audience at the film’s premier for making changes to events in 1879 and overegging characterisation of some of the RD defenders.  But that is entertainment.

You seem to find it hard to say ‘South Wales Borderers’ always using ‘Swb’ in your every post.  The military correct abbreviation is ‘SWB’.  The 24th (2nd Warwickshire) after being renamed the SWB provided us with great service in two World Wars.  Perhaps you really meant to say was ‘Swabs’ which is the unflattering sobriquet which apposing regiments used in banter on the rugby field.

As I said the service of the Regiment has always been beyond reproach.  They have just returned from a long tour in Estonia away from their families keeping us all safe.  By all means make comments about the entertainment ‘Zulu’, but do not refer to my Regiment in such a disparaging way.  Perhaps this should be the conclusion of this post.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 7:59 pm

Hi John Y.

With all due respect my friend, but I just cannot see Cardwell sitting at a desk in an office going through books and lists of regiments personally deciding which regiment to move here and which to move there, I should think that this would have been done by some understudy. So the dunderhead that I am refering to is the twerp that moved a regiment that was already on the Welsh border, ie: The  Monmouthshire Rgt into England (Shrewsbury) instead of leaving it where it was, ie: on the Welsh border, and then moved the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment out of its native England (where it was born), and into Wales (where only its dead ghost exists).

As for Cardwell himself, I am sure that he meant well with his reforms, and in many cases he did some things right, but whoever decided that moving a regiment from the Welsh border into England, and then moving an old long established English regiment into Wales, surely should have had a good kick up the backside.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySat May 20, 2023 8:54 pm

(1) Real Life. The regiment which took part in the actions at both iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift, ie; The 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, no longer exists. The reforms of 1881 ended all line numbers and titles, and new regiments were formed that no longer had the shoulder title of 24, just swb, or if you prefer, SWB. Todays regiment is an amalgamation of different regiments, forced upon them, as you say, by the war office.

(2) The film Zulu. So, Baker making an apology at the film prem for taking liberties and making changes and trying to alter history and creating a myth from a deliberate hoax makes everything ok in your eyes. By deliberately avoiding the real name of the regiment and denying the honour and glory to the mostly Englishmen of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and, as you call it, 'overegging' which I take you mean all the fake Welshness in the film, makes that some sort of entertainment does it?

I think swabs is a navy term, not army, used when they mop the decks, or some such thing.
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Coldsteel




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Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 7:6
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 8:11 am

Mr Cooper,

Following the organisation of the infantry on 1 July 1881, the soldiers of 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment continued to dutifully serve under the name of the ‘South Wales Borderers’ although their Colours bore the name of 2nd Warwickshire.  This continued, throughout the Anglo-Boer war and the Great War.  Thousands of SWB badged soldiers never forgot that they had maintain and uphold the traditions and service of 2nd Warwickshires.  When new Colours were presented to 1 SWB in Hong Kong in 1933, these Colours now bearing for the first time the name ‘South Wales Borderers’ but still  ‘XXIV’ embroidered in the central roundel of the Regimental Colour.  These men deserve our respect.

Your real tirade it appears to be against Sir Stanley Baker.  You are free to express your views about his production.  I am sure you would have preferred English film maker Sir David Lean – but unfortunately, he was busy directing ‘Lawrence of Arabia’ followed by ‘Doctor Zhivago’ at that time.  I am convinced you knew absolutely nothing about the Zulu campaign until you saw ‘Zulu’ and as young child was spellbound by the story.  Baker faced many obstacles during its production, but he persevered and a world-wide audience with a better understanding those heroic events of 1879 resulted, even if in your eyes Baker got it wrong.

The English/Welsh controversy is a difficult one.  With the huge expansion of the industry in South Wales – iron and steel, coal mining, transportation etc., – many families move from the poorer parts of England to find work.  The military saw opportunities to begin recruit in these new industrial areas – hence the establishment of 24th and 41st/69th in South Wales.  This also resulted in men being recruited from families living in Wales, but they themselves being born in England.  It is often said that those who shout the loudest in support of Wales rugby at Cardiff’s Principality Stadium often come from English born great grandparents.  The true significance of this country is that the Irish, Scots, Welsh, English, of course, the earlier Celts and Vikings, later emigrants all emerge to tribute to make this great democratic country.  Don’t be an Englishman with ‘your head in the sand’.

Oh, yes, your 24th (2nd Warwickshire) glengarry badge should have a Howard's green backing to be correct.


Last edited by Kenny on Sun May 21, 2023 10:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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jgregory




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I can see the views from both the English and the Welsh side but the main FACT is that during the AZW it was the 2nd Warwickshire Regiment full stop. And all this nonsense about only four from Warwickshire is irrelevant. I collected Notts and Derby militaria and there were 30 odd Battalions during WW1 how many soldiers came from Derbyshire ? After the carnage at Gommecourt 1st July 1916 when the Derby and Notts Territorials were almost wiped out the replacements came from other Regiments not from Derby.
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John Young

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jgregory,

Just to correct you the regiment in question was actually styled the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment.

By-the-way don’t forget I would appreciate the curator’s identity in advance the Museum meeting on Tuesday.

JY
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jgregory




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No name, he knows who it is. My mistake lets get it right 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment. Shame that Sir Stanley didn't get it right.
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Coldsteel




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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 10:25 am

I have a suspicion you are pointing the finger at former curator Bill Cainan. Frankly, Bill knows more about the AZW than you could learn in a dozen lifetimes.

There is a new curator in the role currently and there was another curator between them and Bill. The museum has gone through the grinder recently, suffering devastating water damage during the winter. They need our full support right now and not the factually compromised ramblings of paranoid, belligerent nationalists.

I’ve been visiting that museum since I was four years old and it has never attempted to pull the wool over anyone’s eyes regarding the name or makeup of the regiment in 1879.

I think anyone reading this thread can see who has read extensively on this topic and who looks like they are fans of GB News!
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jgregory




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More than I could learn in a dozen lifetimes. mmm ok. I look forward to going to Brecon Museum soon as I like to talk to sensible people who do not call me a, quote , paranoid, belligerent nationalist, un quote. I am a full blooded Englishman, it is alright insulting people on a screen but perhaps we could meet at Brecon then you could say that to my face.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 10:49 am

Good morning Kenny.

My word, you are going a long way around the houses to try to justify Baker's unjust meddling and alteration of an historic event, to try to con the gullible public into believing that the regiment that did the business at RD was a Welsh regiment (with a few foreigners from England).

It has always made me wonder how the Welsh would feel about it if the boot was on the other foot.

For instance, let us imagine that the regiment that fought in the AZW, and got a thumping at iSandlwana, but heroically fought off the Zulu attacks at RD and were awarded numerous V.C's for their gallentry, were a Welsh regiment called The South Wales Borderers. Then along comes an anti Welsh English actor who finds out that the regiment had been moved (on paper only) to Warwickshire in England and decides he will try to alter history by making a film about the event, but altering things and pretending that the regiment was English and calling it the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, adding loads of fake Englishness to the film, mentioning English place names to con the viewers into believing that most of the men came from England (with a few foreigners from Wales), then pretending that there was a sing off and instead of M o H , an English singer sang The Warwickshire Lad, then mentioning a depot in Warwickshire were neither Btln had ever been, and then adding fake English names to the roll call to make the regiment sound more English, et, etc, etc, I don't think that the Welsh would be too pleased about that would they? So why all the excuses and all the going round the houses to try to justify Baker's reason for doing it like he did, when you know as well as I do that he did it to give the gullible public the fake impression that it was a Welsh regiment (with a few English foreigners), he did it because he was anti English, and he wanted to deny the rightful regiment  the honour and glory that they deserved, by pretending that it was a Welsh regiment called the SWB, however, history shows that that the regiment was an English county titled regiment called the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and not one called the SWB, as that rigiment did not exist until two years after the AZW.

Kenny, I was not actually a young child when I went with my Grandad to watch the film Zulu, I went with my Grandad because he was getting very old and needed support, but wanted to watch the then new film, so I went with him. Before he got a bit bad on his feet, he used to take me walking everywhere with him over the moors and over the hills that surround this part of Lancashire, and he always ended up going into the pub where his old comrades from WW1 went for a pint. They always got talking about events of WW1 and previous campaigns, and my Grandad often mentioned a relative that fought in the AZW at RD, and he always said that he was in the 'Warwickshires', so can you imagine how my Grandad felt when the film said that it was Welsh and called the SWB, he was not very pleased I can tell you, it put him a bad mood for a while, and he said that Baker was a Faker.

I have served in the Army and have never had anything but respect for our armed forces, so please don't think otherwise. I am also a long serving member of The Royal British Legion, and always give my support to them and try to assist our lads, and proudly wear my old regiments badge and a poppy, and have my tray of poppies and other items to sell at remembrance time.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 10:57 am

jgregory,

I’m fairly certain that you are confusing a Museum Volunteer with the Curator, especially as the Museum Curator is most certainly not a ‘he’, her name is Amanda.

JY
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 11:44 am

JY and an extremely helpful lady, polite and knowledgable.
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jgregory




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That will be nice to meet her. Hope she has not seen the film. Good luck with the meeting. Is Brecon open yet ?
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Coldsteel




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Jgregory

I look forward to it, pal. Take the train in and let’s see what happens. All I know is that whatever nonsense you want to get up to, I’ll be boxing like a full blooded Briton.
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 12:18 pm

When will the tickets be on sale, and will we have to pre-book a seat to watch the show down?

Remember lads, no biting, no spitting, no gouging out eyes, nothing below the belt, no bricks in handbags, no brollies, no knuckle dusters, no flick knives, no toe tectors, etc, etc, etc. LOL!!!!


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jgregory




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That's really scary stuff Coldsteel you must be really tough with a name like that. I have gone pale just reading your rubbish. So you are a Briton eh, what's one of them ? a cross breed something !!. I'll let you know when I am in Brecon. I will be in a car so I will be able to transport you to the nearest A & E. Don't forget to take your false teeth out. Have a nice day PAL.
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jgregory




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Mr Cooper stop trying to upset Mr coldsteel LOL
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 12:57 pm

jgregory,

The Regimental Museum of the Royal Welsh, Brecon, officially reopens on 23rd May 2023, the entrance fee is being waived to encourage visitors.

Coldsteel,

You appear to be blissfully unaware the Beeching cuts put pay to the railway running to Brecon.

ALL THAT SAID!

Can we now put an end to this ridiculous rhetoric, we are here to honour the deeds of those who served, fought and died on both sides of an unnecessary, unfortunate conflict.

What I have just read on this forum - in my opinion - is little better than betrayal to their memory.

It serves no purpose whatsoever, that some of you - again in my opinion - are behaving like squabbling children.

Please put an end to it!

JY
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Coldsteel




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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 1:30 pm

John,

You’ve made me feel embarrassed. I’ve allowed my sense of humour to carry me away. You’re quite right of course. Not to mention that my turn of phrase made me seem like I don’t possess a tedious knowledge of the Neath and Brecon Railway. For shame! I’m only down the road from Penwyllt where they filmed the Boer War ambush in Young Winston.

Gentlemen, no genuine hard feelings. Forum folly and internet silliness.

God save the King and to the eternal memory of that fine British regiment the 24th of foot (2nd Warwickshire).

Also the movie Zulu, without which we would not be here.
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jgregory




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Yes I am truly sorry about the silliness that I was engaged in. That's the end of it.

God save the King. I am going to watch Zulu now.
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Mr M. Cooper

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Yes John, I agree that people are here to discuss and honour the deeds of those who served, fought and died on both sides in this uncalled for war, however, I think you will find that the betrayal to their memory was commited by Baker back in 1964, when he deliberately left out the real name of the regiment, and turned it into a Welsh regiment that did not exist at the time.

By making the film the way he did, the mostly Englishmen and their regiment, ie; the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, were denied their right to the honour and glory for the defence of the mission station at RD, they have been thrown onto the scrap pile and substituded by a so called Welsh regiment that did not exist during the AZW.

Let's face it, when there is any mention of the film Zulu, or the battle at RD, whether it be in some books, magazines, on line, or sites selling toy soldiers wearing red coats and white helmets, it is almost certain that the actual men and their regiment hardly ever get a mention, it is always the Welsh and the SWB that get mentioned and get all the glory, and that is the way that Baker intended it to be. Just how many gullible folk have believed Baker's hoax I wonder, and how many are still believing the myth he created back in 1964. So I think that you will find that any betrayal to their memory was done by Baker the Faker when he deliberately altered things to try and deny the real regiment their rightful place, and glorify a fake Welsh regiment that did not exist during the AZW.

Like I asked Kenny earlier, I wonder how the Welsh would feel if this had been done in reverse, ie; the boot had been on the other foot, the English getting all the credit, honour and glory, for something that the Welsh had done, I rather think that they would be a little displeased and they would not like it very much would they?
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Just turned Zulu off, I can't watch Hook V.C. being treated like a drunkard and Dalton V.C. a quivering wimp.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 4:27 pm

Martin,

Personally, I think that you are wrong in singling out Stanley Baker.  Stanley had two roles in the production of Zulu.  One as an actor, the other as the co-producer of the film.

Stanley did not write the script, to my knowledge two men were responsible for what we hear and see.  Cy Endfield the film’s director, who produced the original screenplay with the co-operation of John Prebble, based on Prebble’s article Slaughter in the Sun.

Personally, I think that you are pointing the finger at the wrong person.  

That said not one of those three men is alive today, and therefore they cannot answer your questions - or my mine for that matter - as to who was responsible as to the errors, omissions or manipulation of fact for a storyline.

Just spare a thought if the film had not been produced when it was, there was a rival project being considered, which was titled The Battle of Rorke’s Drift, that was to have been a Boulting Brothers production.  I will let your imagination conjure up how that might have played out.  I was a close personal friend of the man who had been considered to write the screenplay for that project, and through him I was also well acquainted with Roy Boulting.  Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your sentiment, the Boulting production never made it to fruition.

JY
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Mr M. Cooper

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John, I have mentioned the yank loony left commie Endfield before in some of my posts, so it's not just Baker that I have blamed for this film being made the way it was. And I can just imagine what the film might have been like if the Boulting's had been involved in making it, it could well have turned out similar to a Carry on film, but at least we might have got a good laugh out of it, rather than getting cheesed off at the way the real regiment had been ignored and replaced by one that never existed at the time. I know that Prebble was himself a commie at some time, so he and Endfield being reds would get along together wouldn't they? I have read that although he was born in England, he moved to Canada with his parents, but later returned and had an interest in Scottish history and the Tay Bridge disaster, collecting many photo's of the fallen girders and the wreckage. The article was written for lilliput in1958, and later he, Endfield and Baker got together and made up one of the biggest hoaxes in British Army history, and dumped the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment on the scrap pile in favour of a fake Welsh regiment that did not exist during the AZW.
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One of my tribute frames.
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My frame of Pte. Hook VC[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


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This is a nice display.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Mr M. Cooper

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Very good display cases, well done that man.

I posted a similar display case a few weeks ago, it shows Lt Bromhead VC, Col Sgt Bourne DCM, and of course our good friend Pte H. Hook VC.

It's only a few weeks since I posted it, so it shouldn't be all that hard to find, problem is, I can't remember which topic it was in.
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2459 Colour  Sgt. Bourne. DCM[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 7:16 pm

All the frames of the RD awarded VC.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 8:07 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Found it, I posted it a few weeks back.

Good work on the others you have done, very well done.
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John Young

John Young


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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 8:39 pm

Martin,

Can I ask is that display in your own collection?  If so why are there photographs of Edward Wilson, 1st Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment, and Sergeant William Allan V.C. - in the Uniform of the South Wales Borderers - are doing lurking amongst the replica medals of Frank Edward Bourne?

Bromhead V.C. appears to have misplaced his Burma clasp Indian General Service Medal as well!

Just curious, as ever.

JY
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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 10:09 pm

Hi John, yes it is. I was hoping to find a picture of Frank Bourne wearing his Col Sgt's uniform and searched online for anything, and I was led to believe that the small images were of him, but I did have my doubts, however, with being in my 70's and my eyes not being as good as they once used to be, (should have gone to specsavers I suppose), I downloaded them under the impression that they were of Frank, but wasn't all that certain. So I also downloaded the larger one with the feathered hat and put the two small ones next to it, but still wasn't all that sure about the two small ones, they somehow didn't look right, I must get some new glirks with stronger lenses.

The case is really not big enough, I looked for one a little bit bigger so that I could have displayed all of Bromhead VC's medals, however, I could only find one this size, so decided to mount just his VC and SA medals and would have to leave the IGSM off the display.

Anyway, now that your eagle eyes have pointed me in the right direction, I will have to rearrange the display and just have Frank holding the feathered hat, so that I can then fit in Bromhead VC's IGSM with Burma clasp.

Thanks for spotting ths John, much appreciated.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 10:30 pm

Hello Martin,

To my knowledge there at least two photographs that show Frank Bourne wearing his Colour-Sergeant’s uniform, both of them were taken in Pinetown, Natal, prior to the 2nd Battalion leaving South Africa.  There is the well-known one where there is a group of some fifty, or so, men laying on a slope.  Frank Bourne is on the left of that photograph as you view it.

The other one has most of the men standing with Bromhead V.C. standing on the left as viewed, and Frank Bourne standing next to him.

In both of the photographs Bourne is wearing a serge frock, and therefore wears the abbreviated rank insignia of a crown over three gold chevrons.

JY
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptySun May 21, 2023 11:22 pm

Hi John. Yes, I know the one with the men on the slope, I must have a copy of that one somewhere, but I can't seem to recall the other one you speak of, and when I try to look for it on line, all I keep getting is images from the film, and of course Nigel Green who played Frank Bourne in the film (even though he looked nothing like him).

Getting fed up with searching, as all I keep getting is the same images from the film, so I will give it a rest and make a brew and search again tomorrow.

Thanks again John for spotting this error.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyTue May 23, 2023 3:52 pm

All
Zulu is a work of FICTION based on fact.  As such I suppose, the film's makers were entitled to put in it whatever they wanted.  Anyone who thinks that Zulu portrays real events is selling the REAL soldiers who took part short.  Cinema-goers would never have believed the actual events if they had been portrayed accurately.
Can members please refrain from dragging in all this anti-Englishness and anti-Welshness.  This is no place for it; I'm beginning to think it's deliberate.
My own relative at Isandhlwana was English, born in Bradwell-cum-Coggeshall, Essex and joined the 24th Regt.  He fought alongside men from all four corners of the UK.  His great-nephew was born in Camberwell now in London and joined the Royal Welsh (note the spelling) Fusiliers and was killed on the Somme.  Another relative was born in Cork, joined an Irish Regiment and fought on the NW Frontier in 1898 and the Boer War 1900-01.  He then became a miner in Wales and married a Welshwoman.  He volunteered in 1914 (the Munster Fusiliers) and fought at Gallipoli (where his battalion was decimated) and the Western Front.  He returned to Wales in time for his wife to die.  He then joined the RAF as a mechanic and served out his time in the 20s in England.  He returned to Ireland, married an Irish girl and came back to England in 1940, too old to fight, but 'did his bit' by working on the railways.  He was a Catholic, a firm believer in the UK (a West Briton for which he suffered in Ireland), and kept a framed picture of the King and Queen on his parlour wall till the day he died.
The army then and now teaches you self-reliance, mutual respect, and TOTAL reliance on one another no matter where one comes from.
I think all three men would be appalled by the sentiments (not the facts cinematic and historical - you can't argue with facts) expressed in many of the above posts.  These sentiments go against the spirit of the service.  They also go against the spirit of this forum.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon May 29, 2023 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.    Bogus claims to having taken part in the defence of the mission station Rorkes Drift.  - Page 2 EmptyMon May 29, 2023 6:54 pm

As a corollary I thought members might like to see this
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which is a piece by Antony Beevor of the greatest war movies ever made (in his opinion) and why.
As it happens I've seen his top recommendation (it's not Zulu0 and it is still available through Amazon with sub-titles. It is indeed an outstanding film.
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