Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James OwenThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at IsandhlwanaWed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNCThu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked CampWed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra » Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diaryMon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at largeSun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman » Baron Von SteitencronWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra » Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - MemorialTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th » Writing adviceSun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra » South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage DiaryThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort LocationsThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th RegimentWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper » Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA IsandlwanaThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879 » Hamilton Browne's birthdayFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra » Zulu "Corps"Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes » Army Pay Department PersonnelThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra » Ntshingwayo birth dateSun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes » Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's familyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra » Smith's Store/HotelWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Shaka iLembeSat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84 » Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment Sat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman » Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh PollardTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Sat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra » Fairlie's Native PoliceThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes |
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New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James OwenThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at IsandhlwanaWed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNCWed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked CampSun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
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| | Original Documents at Kew | |
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+3Frank Allewell Chelmsfordthescapegoat rusteze 7 posters | Author | Message |
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rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 9:19 pm | |
| Just returned from a fascinating day at the National Archives at Kew looking at some original documents. This post is not about new discoveries, it is about looking at the original letters and reports that we all see referred to in the books. The first War Office file I ordered up was titled South Africa: Zulu War : Reports, Statements and proceedings of the Court of Enquiry. It was about 150 loose sheets of manuscript including letters from Chelmsford, reports by Wood and notes by those back in London. What I found really interesting are the comments and scraps of paper attached to the letters, usually by the recipient, and not often included in the printed works. They sometimes give you an insight into what they were thinking in London. Here is an example. This note was attached to the front of Chelmsford's letter of 20 March 1879 to the Secretary of State for War. The letter is in reaction to what Clery had said at the C of E. It is probably the first letter in which Chelmsford begins to wriggle a little at comments about him not coming to the defence of the camp. It contains the well known references to sending Milne up the hill to look through his telescope and not getting a message that anything was untoward until late in the afternoon. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Copyright National Archives For those finding it difficult to read it says " Circulate confidentially to Cabinet - not for Gazette. Let it be so marked and also let Colonial Office be warned not to print it at present. Dated21/4/79."I think it had begun to dawn on those in London what had happened and that the wheels were beginning to come off the wagon for Lord C. Government's first reaction - keep it quiet. Steve |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 9:59 pm | |
| It doesn't appear to say much. I take it your speculating. |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 10:22 pm | |
| Hi CTSG
It doesn't need to say much, but I think it speaks volumes ! But my interpretation I grant you. Why do you think the Secretary of State wanted to keep it quiet?
I think this is Hicks-Beach who had been desperate to stop the ultimatum to Cetswayo, (cooked up by his predecessor Caernarvon and Frere), but he was too late. I think he expected this kind of mess.
Steve |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 10:30 pm | |
| It could be referring to just about anything. Being more of a primary source man I couldn't say what they wanted kept quite. It couldn't have been much or it would have been said verbally and not written down. |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 10:48 pm | |
| CTSG
It is a primary source (about as primary as you can get) and it is attached to Chelmsford's letter so there is no doubt at all about what it refers to. It is normal for Ministers to write handling instructions on documents, particularly if they think they are sensitive - they don't do it verbally because they want to be able to point to the instruction later to cover their back (particularly if it has been ignored!). Churchill was a prime example - Action this day!. Go on, speculate why he wanted to keep this letter from Chelmsford quiet.
Steve |
| | | Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 11:11 pm | |
| I can't see how you attach it to the COE. Or are you basing it, because it attached to a letter among a 150 loose sheets of manuscript. You say. - Steve wrote:
- "This note was attached to the front of Chelmsford's letter of 20 March 1879 to the Secretary of State for War"
What was the actual letter from LC saying that the , the minute paper was attached to ? |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Thu May 21, 2015 11:28 pm | |
| CTSG
Because, it is attached to a letter from Chelmsford which begins " Sir, with reference to my letter of 15th inst forwarding documentary evidence in connection with the occurrences of 22nd January. I have the honour to enclose a statement made by Major Clery on the same subject and remarks by myself on it." The Secy. of State is saying to the Cabinet - keep this confidential and warning the Colonial Office not to publish it. There really isn't any confusion about what he is referring to - its Chelmsford's letter.
Steve |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 9:02 am | |
| Interesting browsing through the archives isn't it Steve. I spend hours in the Cape Archives, ever once in a while something of interest turns up. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 10:34 am | |
| ctsg I dont think he's implying about the dodgy meal he had the night before ! , certainly you dont need to be a Rhodes Scholar to understand to what he's referring . 90th Steve / Frank Yes , Archives can be very interesting , as you have posted on several instances . |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 10:44 am | |
| Hi Frank/Gary I enjoy it too. They are very well set up at Kew and I can be there in 40 minutes - motorway permitting. A digital camera lets you copy stuff very easily as well - it only took me about half an hour to copy all 150 pages that I can now study at my leisure. This was another note in the file that I thought was amusing - nothing much changes in the corridors of power! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Copyright National Archives I don't know who Cooper was. It reads "These papers have just been returned to me by the Intelligence Branch! Yours try. H Percy Hopkin 10/1/83 - they were borrowed as you will see from Sir Ralph Thompsons room in December 1879." I imagine that the Intelligence Branch had purloined them to complete the Narrative (published 1881) and conveniently forgotten to return them for three years! I also managed to copy the NA versions of the two Isandhlwana maps we have been discussing, I will post them later. Steve |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Original Doc's at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 10:58 am | |
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| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 11:48 am | |
| Sir Ralph Thompson, from whose room the COE documents quoted above had been removed by the Intelligence Branch, was Under Secretary of State for War (the top civil servant at the time). He, like many others in positions of power, had an inclination to keep close wraps on things (he was the equivalent, at the time, to Sir Humphrey in Yes Minister).
Later, when corresponding with Wolseley in India he wrote " Although Disreali had read his (Wolseley's) memorandum he did not want to circulate it to the Cabinet and thinks it should be kept as quiet as possible." The memorandum was about abandoning Turkey and mounting an offensive against Russia in Afghanistan.
Nothing to do with our war I know, but it demonstrates just how much goes on behind the scenes and how easy it is to get a false picture from uninformed sources who are far removed from the centre.
Steve |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Original Doc's at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 12:13 pm | |
| Hi Steve '' Yes , Minister '' one of the best tv shows of all time , can't tell you how many times I've watched that series over the years , although haven't done so for a while 90th |
| | | Chard1879
Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 8:50 pm | |
| I'm sure that if any of those documents had any real bearing. The likes of Julian Whybra would have found them. |
| | | rusteze
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Fri May 22, 2015 9:03 pm | |
| I'm sure your right my friend. Thank you for your valuable contribution.
Steve |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sat May 23, 2015 10:38 am | |
| Hi Chard Not quite mate. There are so many odds and sods just waiting to be discovered, misfiled, miss labelled, buried away. They are there and its going to be the casual browser, like Steve (no insult intended Steve) that isn't following strict procedural research rules that's going to turn them up. And example of that is of Trooper Mayor of RD. His letters had laid in those archives for over a hundred years, it just took a small quirk to start on a path that found them. In similar lines searching along a path for something totally different I came across a hand written essay on one soldiers experiences on the march and his eye witness description of one of the battles. That should be ready for publication fairly soon as soon as the editor gets his finger out.
The point is theres a hell of a lot out there still to be found, including a report Bromhead wrote the day after the battle. And no it isn't a myth, I have proof that it was written and sent to England, maybe Steve will stumble over it.
Cheers Mate |
| | | nthornton1979
Posts : 154 Join date : 2011-01-18 Age : 44 Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sat May 23, 2015 12:38 pm | |
| Quite right Frank.
I have found several Rorke's Drift accounts that have not yet, to my knowledge ben brought to light. Although not from Kew, it show that information is still out there waiting to be found.
A Bromhead report - Now that would be one heck of a find!
Neil
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| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sat May 23, 2015 9:28 pm | |
| "Major Francis Clery, who was garrisoned at Rorke's Drift with Bromhead after the battle wrote,
"The height of Bromhead's enjoyment seemed to be to sit all day on a stone on the ground smoking a most uninviting looking pipe. The only thing that seemed equal to moving him in any way was an allusion to the defence of Rorke's Drift. This used to have a sort of electrical effect upon him, for he would jump up and off he would go, not a word could be got out of him. When I told him he should send me an official report on the affair it seemed to have a most distressing effect on him" |
| | | nthornton1979
Posts : 154 Join date : 2011-01-18 Age : 44 Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sat May 23, 2015 9:51 pm | |
| Clery admitted reading a report from Bromhead, in a letter to Lady Alison, MAY 1879:-
"When I told him he should send me an official report on the affair it seemed to have a most distressing effect on him. I used to find him hiding away in corners with a friend helping him to complete this account, and the only thing that afterwards helped to lessen the compassion I felt for all this, was my own labour when perusing this composition - to understand what it was all about. So you can fancy that there was not one who knew him who envied him his distinction, for his modesty about him was, and is excessive."
Bourne also spoke of a despatch which may or may not be the 'report':-
"Bromhead wrote a despatch which he (Colour-Sergeant Bourne) had to copy. Not a man's name was mentioned in that despatch. Later, however, it was discovered that Chard was senior, and another despatch was written in which the names were mentioned."
"'The Epsom District Times, Friday, July 29th, 1932." |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sun May 24, 2015 6:46 am | |
| Neil Ive dropped you an e mail |
| | | nthornton1979
Posts : 154 Join date : 2011-01-18 Age : 44 Location : Runcorn, Cheshire, UK
| Subject: Re: Original Documents at Kew Sun May 24, 2015 11:18 am | |
| Thanks Frank.
Replied.
Neil |
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