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Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:12 pm
Yes Steve, John Barry Prendergast's score for 'the film', it is indeed the only good thing about 'Baker's welsh hoax Film' in which he attempts to alter history and make it appear that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was a welsh outfit, when it was not.
The information at the start of the clip could do with editing though, as there were a lot more than 49 Englishmen at RD, and all of the V.C's awarded to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment went to Englishmen.
Very stirring music by J.B.P.
Posts : 465 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:21 am
I do not think for a moment that the men of Monmouthshire would class themselves as English.
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:37 am
Monmouthshire at the time was indeed part of England, and the English inhabitants of Monmouthshire vastly outnumbered any from wales, Monmouth did not become welsh until the 1970's. If you read their statements, you will see that the 2 men from Monmouth that were awarded the VC, both claimed to be Englishmen.
Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:45 pm
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:52 pm
Harlech is in north wales, and the song (MoH), is in honour of the Lancastrians that defended Harlech against the yorkists during the wars of the roses, so why would 'Baker's imaginary south wales outfit' be singing about that?
There was no 'sing off' at RD, that was just to add even more false welshness to 'Baker's welsh hoax film', and even if there had been a 'sing off', the men would have sung their regimental song "The Warwickshire Lad", as that was the regimental tune of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and NOT MoH.
Posts : 465 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:07 am
Despite your in-trenched comments on Stanley Baker - please give him credit for bringing the courage and steadfastness in battle of the soldiers of the 24th to the attention of millions around the world who may have never heard of Rorke's Drift. It is not a bad film - in fact quite excellent - it has remained a favourite for over 50 years. It is after all entertainment not a documentary. Some 30,000 to 40,000 tourists visit RD each year which brings needed income to the local community. Stanley Baker done a lot of good.
Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 59 Location : UK
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 10, 2015 9:17 am
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:15 pm
I have always said that 'Baker's film' introduced millions of people to the AZW, however, if Baker had been more honest about it, and credited the courage and steadfastness of the overwhelming majority of the English soldiers of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, rather than give millions of viewers the false impression that the defenders were welshmen 'with a few English foreigners', then 'the film' would have been a lot fairer to those brave men than the false welshness it gave to people.
Baker had an anti English chip on his shoulder, so he made the film in such a way to deliberately give to the viewers the false impression that the regiment was welsh, hence all the false welshness in the film, and as a result of this hoax, how many people are under the impression that RD was defended by a welsh regiment I wonder?
The bravery, steadfastness and courage of these men that defended RD is a credit to ALL of them, not just the few welshmen that were there, but the way that Baker made the film it is just crediting the welsh and suggesting that there were only a few foreigners from England in the regiment, when actually it was the other way round. The real name of the regiment is never mentioned, however, at the end of the film Burton says that it was the swb, which is totally wrong, and only adds more fuel to the pretence that the regiment was welsh and called the swb, to my mind this is a total insult to the mainly Englishmen of the regiment that fought and died defending RD, those men did not fight and die as members of a pretend welsh outfit, they were members of a regiment that was raised in England and went under the title of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and to pretend otherwise is a total injustice to the memory of those brave men and others before them that fought in a regiment that was raised in England in 1689.
Yes, 'the film' brought the AZW to the attention of the public, and there are thousands of tourists that now visit the battlefields, but how many of them are under the false belief that it was an all welsh affair and leave little welsh dragon flags dotted about here and there, do any of them ever think about the gallant Englishmen and their regiment the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment I wonder, or are they under the false impression that it was a welsh regiment and that the men were welsh because of Baker's film?
"Baker done a lot of good" ????
I rather think he did a lot of bad by deliberately depriving the mainly Englishmen and their regiment, the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, of their glory and honour and their rightful place in history, by stealing that history and glory, and crediting it to an imaginary outfit that did not come into existance until two years after the AZW, but which many thousands of gullible folk believe to be fact.
A new film should be made that gives the proper facts and the real name of the regiment and its mainly Englishmen that defended RD, and put an end to the false welsh myth that was created by Baker just because he had an anti English chip on his shoulder, but who, ironically, played an Englishman in the film, two faced or what ????
Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:40 pm
Martin you you seem to be blaming Baker, what about Enfield?
I suppose you apply the same logic to Lord Chelmsford & Durmford.
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:04 pm
Cyril (Cy) Endfield was a commie (loony left), and we all know what the loony left have done to this once great country. You only have to look out of your window to see the results of the socialist liberal loony left with its PC brigade to see what these idiots have done to our country, and Endfield was one of these sort of lefty twerps. So with this sort of influence and Baker's anti English attitude, is it any wonder that the film is all one sided and bias?
The difference between Chelmsford and Durnford is that Durnford was a human being, which is more than can be said of Thesiger.
Posts : 2594 Join date : 2009-04-24
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:10 pm
You have completely lost the whole concept of why the film was made, your comments relating to the film is nothing more than insults to the memory of the men who lost their lives during the Battle, and the celebrities who took part in the film. You have a serious problem with the Welsh?
Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:21 pm
Martins comments on the film and the regiment is wearing thin with a lot of member's. Unfounded nonsense.
Subject: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:43 am
If anyone or anything insults the memory of the men that lost their lives during the battle, then look no further than Baker and the film.
As I said in an earlier post, the bravery, steadfastness and courage of the men that defended RD is a credit to ALL of them, however, Baker chose to make the film in such a way that gave the credit to his fellow welshmen, thus deliberately denying the overwhelming majority of English soldiers and their regiment [the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment] of their rightful place in history, by pretending that the regiment was a welsh regiment 'with a few foreigners from England' and that it was called the swb.
He deliberately ignored the historical facts and substituted the actual men and their regiment, and gave the credit to an imaginary welsh outfit that did not come into existance until two years AFTER the AZW, thereby giving the false impression to the general public that it was an all welsh affair.
So if anyone is guilty of insulting the memory of the actual men who lost their lives during the battle, then I suggest you look at Baker's motives for doing that. My campaign is to try to restore that honour and glory to the rightful men and their regiment, and regain for them their rightful place in history, not for them to be erased from memory and the history books, nor to be forgotten and substituted by an imaginary welsh outfit that did not exist at the time of the AZW.
If you think that the above is 'unfounded nonsense', then you must not be all that bothered about historical facts, nor about the actual men and their regiment that fought and lost their lives defending RD. Can't you see that I am trying to get justice for them, and regain for them their rightful place in history, and give them back the honour and glory that has been hijacked and stolen from them by an anti English welsh actor who had a chip on his shoulder.
Posts : 372 Join date : 2013-09-16 Age : 56 Location : MELBOURNE
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:36 am
What ever any one thinks it was this movie that made many of us get into this Epic story of the Zulu War yes even Ian Knight said there is a few fictions concerning the movie but if i remember correctly if it was not for the movie Zulu even Ian would not have written all his books and then how many of us would have miss out,
All movies have fiction in it, research and you will find out the truth
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:23 pm
I have always said that the film inspired many to find out more about the AZW, however, with most people they just watched it and assumed that it was 'factual', and many of those people have fallen for Baker's hoax and believe that the regiment was welsh and named the swb, and that the men were also welsh 'with a few foreigners from England'. As a result you will find many, many quotes, web sites, items, etc, etc, etc, all giving the welsh the credit for the defence of RD, and if this sort of thing continues it will eventually become the norm, and the real regiment and the men will be lost to history and hidden behind a myth created by Baker's welsh hoax film, and that cannot be right.
The late welshman Kenneth Griffiths made a documentary which added even more false welshness to the idea that it was an all welsh affair, in which he deliberately avoided all reference to the real name of the regiment, but selected some letters from the very few welsh soldiers who wrote to their families, who's names and addresses were of course welsh, he even sat outside of a small tent with a welsh dragon flag atop of it, if this was not a deliberate attempt at persuading the gullible general public that the regiment was welsh, then I don't know what is.
Yes, most films have some degree of fiction in them (especially American), but Baker's film went over the top and well too far with the welsh theme, and therefor it should be remade to give the public a far more realistic view of events and also the real name of the regiment and the overwhelming number of Englishmen in it, otherwise the memory of these brave men and their regiment will be lost to history and hidden behind the myth caused by Baker's welsh hoax film.
Yes, those who do research will indeed find out the truth, but how many casual viewers will be bothered to find out more, and how many will still believe and even quote that it was a welsh regiment without giving it a second thought.
Baker had an anti English chip on his shoulder, and therefor had an agenda by making the film the way he did, that is why this hoax needs correcting and the film should be remade, to give back the actual men and their actual regiment their honour and glory and the credit that has been stolen from them by a bigoted anti English welsh actor. How this fictional hoax got passed by the board I just don't know, unless of course the board at the time were welsh.
Posts : 7077 Join date : 2009-04-24 Age : 53 Location : Down South.
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:03 am
Martin. Ironic, that Baker portrayed Lt John Chard, who was an Englishman. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:27 pm
Exactly mate, I have often said that about Baker, talk about being two faced, jeez!
Well, he would have to play 'the hero' wouldn't he, and the problem for him in that regard, was that there were so few welshmen there, and not one of them had a senior rank, so because he wanted to play 'top dog' he had no option but to play the part of an Englishman.
Posts : 8231 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 75 Location : Cape Town South Africa
Subject: Re: Baker, Enfield & The Film Zulu Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:14 pm
Twelve Welshmen I believe and of course Mr Baker, hummmmmmmmmm Is that where the phrase Bakers Dozen came from?