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Zulu Dawn:“Excuse me, my Lord, there's something I must convey to you. I rode along the track down to Rorke's Drift. The sky above is red with fire. Your orders my Lord? Do we move to the drift?”
 
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 Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana

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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2588
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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:28 am

90th wrote:
ctsg
Your much earlier post where you think Durnford was doing the same as LC isnt quite the same , Durnford had a fast mobile force , he could certainly retreat if he came across a strong contingent of zulu , LC couldnt , and would've died were they stood ! . So I think you certainly cant compare the situations ..
90th

Quite right, he was very good at retreating. Wasn't his retreat with his fast moving force a part of what led to the disaster at Isandlwana. I suppose we could say it was a good Job, he was refused the two companies of the 24th, as they were in foot. We know what happened to his RB that were also on foot.
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:44 am

CTSG please! Durnford died & paid for his mistakes. In the end he fought heroically & can't be faulted for the manner in which he died. The comment was about "mobility" viz cavalry & infantry. Lord C just didn't have enough! That's a fact, I'm not apportioning blame.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Prudent & Foolish decisions at Isandlwana    Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:53 am

ctsg
If he was so good at retreating why did he die on the battlefield ? . I think you'll find his fast moving retreating force actually saved lives by giving a few others a chance to get away , while he , held off the left horn till his ammunition began to fail ! . His actions were on different scenarios , he thought at Isandlwana that the zulu would possibly be attempting to cut off your mate LC and his force . He was being proactive on his unauthorised sortie , even though LC seems to have given the go ahead for company commanders to act as they thought fit ! . Did he take the rocket battery with him on censured sortie ? , I dont think it was a wise move him taking it out with him at Isandlwana , then again it's the old story , he , and all the others never thought the zulu army would attack the camp , Durnford was more worried about LC than the camp . But , Hindsight is a wonderful thing isnt it ? .
90th
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:02 am

The phrase farting against thunder springs to mind 90th. Rolling Eyes Wink
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:12 am

Mr Allewell,
Your last comment was an absolute classic! I'm going to use that one LOL.

agree Very Happy
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:44 am

Lord Chelmsford embarks on a campaign with a force which was believed by the British Government to be used for defensive purposes only. He lacked at least two Infantry Division. LC understood that his military strength was totally inadequate for the task at hand but still he pushed on. He (LC) then gives unclear and often ropey orders that were left open to interpretation by his subordinates, he then dismisses any advice that they dare to offer him. LC then splits his force and heads off leaving the camp in an extremely vulnerable situation. What was it that one of his peers said when asked about Lord Chelmsford's conduct, "It is to me perfectly incomprehensible.

Waterloo
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 7:15 pm

And then Durnford splits the force again. agree
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 7:52 pm

CTSG obviously you do not accept that Durnford rode out concerned that his Commanding General was imperilled. What other reason would he ride out for?
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:02 pm

Now we are going down hill. May I suggest you read all of the " Durnford was he capable threads"
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:04 pm

Didn't someone, possibly 90th say Durnford was 'being proactive', I would agree with that point. Why did Durnford head out, simple, he wanted to investigate a possible Zulu flanking movement which he believed could isolated LC from the camp, I would have thought that would be an obvious thing to do given the reports of Zulu movements, or am I missing something?

Regards

Waterloo
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:37 pm

Simple????????
Shocked Shocked Shocked
Cheers
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 8:48 pm

He was ordered to move to the camp. Not leave the camp. What part of that order do you not understand. No
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:38 pm

ymob,

Okay, maybe not simple.
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:42 pm

CTSG,

Did the order state clearly remain at camp? I thought the orders were a bit vague.

Waterloo
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 9:58 pm

waterloo50 wrote:
ymob,

Okay, maybe not simple.
Wink

Cheers
Frédéric
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:31 pm

CTSG,

LC's orders to Pulleine were vague

LC's orders to Durnford on returning to the camp were vague, he hadn't specified what Durnford was supposed to do.

Where did the order to remain in camp come from? or, are you suggesting that Durnford was supposed to arrive and act on his own initiative (Which he did)


The way I see it is, that an order to head to the camp, does not mean 'Stay in the Camp'

Waterloo
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 10:58 pm

Funny things orders are. Especially when they go missing & all that can be relied on are the statements of certain " officers & gentlemen."
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:05 pm

Be a bit careful with the question of orders from LC to Durnford. It looks very likely that some orders are missing - take a look at the thread "Who was most culpable for the defeat at Isandlwana" from the post on16 June 2015 at 10.55 onwards. We do not have the full picture of what the orders to Durnford amounted to.

Steve
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ymob

ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:11 pm

I can perceive the embryo of the subject "Durnford was he capable 7 ?Very Happy "
Cheers
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:29 pm

Be a bit careful with the question of orders from LC to Durnford. It looks very likely that some orders are missing - take a look at the thread "Who was most culpable for the defeat at Isandlwana" from the post on16 June 2015 at 10.55 onwards. We do not have the full picture of what the orders to Durnford amounted to.


Exactly the point I was trying to make with CTSG's erarlier post that Durnford was "ordered to stay in camp"
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:31 pm

Correction to lady post "ordered to move to camp" apologies
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waterloo50

waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:33 pm

All agreed that there are missing orders, so, we have to go with what we know as fact, the rest is conjecture or Chinese whispers.

Waterloo
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rusteze

rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:45 pm

Going with what we know is one thing. Interpreting the intentions of LC and the understanding that Durnford had of those intentions, without all the facts, is another.

Steve
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Martini-Henry

Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 23, 2015 11:58 pm

Unfortunately we shall never have, " all the facts." We are forced to draw conclusions based on what we do know sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong. This is part of the fun, that so many of us can arrive at disparate standpoints in the debates still raging about the AZW. I'm off to bed now goodnight my friends
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:32 am

MH
Well done you've put your finger on the spot, it why this forum exists. We have so many differing levels from the 'Who was to blame." and the order interpretations to the posting of these wonderful pictures by JY, isandula and 90th. And of course the erudite comments from our resident fundis.
I don't know if CTSG is right or wrong but its his viewpoint and he defends it.
Me, I get a sore backside from side saddling the fence.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:35 am

Oh yes
Brigadier ? My old troop sergeant would be convulsed with laughter.
First time in his life he would have smiled the miserable Sod.
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Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 7:53 am

Mr Allewell,
Thanks for the kind sentiments, it is a steep learning curve. There are so many on this Forum who have infinitely greater knowlege than myself. I like to think that we can all bring something to the table.

Salute
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:04 am

Martini seems to have come across the problem fairly quickly. the finger of blame has being rotating for years and years, just when your convinced you have established the guilty one, something new comes to light, and sets the finger rotating again.
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Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:09 am

waterloo50 wrote:
CTSG,

Did the order state clearly remain at camp? I thought the orders were a bit vague.

Waterloo


Before CTSG replys

I'm guessing he would say!

Did the order state clearly leave the camp. So in military terms, would you not just move to the camp and wait further orders, no matter how long it takes to get them, knowing your General was going to meet the Zulus. And the stores required for the invasion was left in the camp.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:38 am

Back to the same point Dave, he went to the camp and so obeyed his orders. After that? Wide open to interpretation really.

Cheers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 9:58 am

Exactly Frank...unless there were anything previous that would indicate any subsequently-desired action on the part of LC.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 10:37 am

And that's my point, whatever view we hold needs to acknowledge that there are parts of the jigsaw missing that could make a significant difference to our understanding of why things happened in the way they did.

I became a Lt Colonel earlier in the week and am looking forward to the pension increase.

Steve
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:33 pm

Hi all,


Has anyone come up with a simplified timeline or a bullet point flow chart sort of thing for the movements, orders both real and missing for Isandlwana, if they have that's brilliant if not would any of the more knowledgeable members be prepared to put one together, perhaps other members could add to it as a kind of work in progress. I often find myself trawling through half a dozen books in order to work out who said what to who. I would do one for myself but I just don't have the knowledge like our experts and I'm sure that I would miss things out.

Cheers

Waterloo
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:38 pm

Steve/rusteze

Congratulations on the Lt Colonel, Salute


Waterloo
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:39 pm

...but half-pay Very Happy
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:40 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
Oh yes
Brigadier ? My old troop sergeant would be convulsed with laughter.
First time in his life he would have smiled the miserable Sod.

Brigadier Frank,

Congratulations Salute
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Martini-Henry

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:43 pm

It would be churlish of me not to offer my congratulations also.

Well done Brigadier Salute

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:43 pm

Waterloo
I have time lines based on the whole battle, of necessity they are split up into geographical segments. Ive been working on a 3D computer model with a time and distance axis, alas time tends to run out.
Cheers
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:46 pm

Sorry I should have added that Im quite prepared to e mail to you, they are to long and convoluted to post. There are however a couple of essays Ive humbly put together looking at movements around the battle field, Possibly one of the more adept members could lead you to them.

Regards

PS I do tend to come in through different doors.............on occasion.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 12:57 pm

Hi Frank

I would appreciate it if you could e mail me the time lines, I will have a search for your essays.

Many Thanks

Waterloo
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Fank,

I have found one of your essays, The Tahelane Spur in Context.

Cheers

Waterloo
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 1:32 pm

I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:06 pm

rusteze wrote:
I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve

Please Frank, me too.
Cheers
frédéric
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:08 pm

So I am not the only one that would benefit from a time-line then?


Waterloo
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:11 pm

For several reasons, it's a difficult subjet.
Keith I. SMITH wrote an essay on this.
Cheers
Frédéric
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Frederic,

Do you know what the title of the essay was?

Cheers

Waterloo
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:50 pm

"Isandlwana: a timetable".

Cheers

Frédéric
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 2:56 pm

Smith, Keith I. “Isandlwana: A Timetable.” Journal of the Anglo Zulu War Historical Society 18 (December 2005); reprinted (as “A Battle Timetable”?) in his book "dead was everything:Studies in the Anglo Zulu war by the same author.

Cheers
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 3:01 pm

rusteze wrote:
I would be grateful for your timelines as well Frank. I don't think you have sent them before.

PS I think Brigadier makes you the senior man so, like LC, it's all your fault.

Steve

Steve, the senior man is Major General "Gary" (90th).
Cheers
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana   Prudent & Foolish Desicions at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyFri Jul 24, 2015 3:07 pm

Might have known an Aussie would be at the bottom of it!

Steve
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