WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Rorkes drift Hotel
a  question EmptyFri Jul 10, 2020 4:57 am by aussie inkosi

» Staff College, Camberley. Class of 1880-1
a  question EmptyWed Jul 08, 2020 6:46 pm by Beckwith

» Pete Smith Cottage.
a  question EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 6:29 am by 90th

» Lt C. Williams KIA Hlobane
a  question EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 5:09 am by 90th

» Diamond Fields Horse in Zululand
a  question EmptyTue Jul 07, 2020 4:58 am by 90th

» Buffalo Border Guard Anonymous Letter
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» Surgn. J. McGann. A. M. Dept
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 11:07 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel William Henry Dowling Reeves Welman, 99th
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:54 pm by ADMIN

» Commander C. Lindsay.
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:42 pm by ADMIN

» Reopening National Archives
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 10:01 pm by Bill8183

» S.SMITH Buffalo Border Guard
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:48 pm by Julian Whybra

» NNC Officer List
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 pm by Ells

» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
a  question EmptyMon Jul 06, 2020 7:37 am by Julian Whybra

» N Batt 5th Bde RA
a  question EmptySat Jul 04, 2020 11:52 am by Rory Reynolds

» Questions of Time and Place at Isandlwana
a  question EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 12:38 pm by Frank Allewell

» Question Regarding the Uniforms of the Officers of the 24th at Isandlwana
a  question EmptyFri Jul 03, 2020 6:06 am by SRB1965

» Malicious malware on this site
a  question EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 10:26 pm by intombe

» Zulu Victory - Views?
a  question EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 6:52 pm by WeekendWarrior

» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
a  question EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:56 pm by Julian Whybra

» Anyone got information on this.
a  question EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 3:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Captn. H. G. Bowen, 88th Foot
a  question EmptyThu Jul 02, 2020 1:18 pm by gstew88

» The South Africa Medal to HMS Forester - an anomaly?
a  question EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 7:41 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieut. R. F. Dixon NMR
a  question EmptyWed Jul 01, 2020 5:01 am by 90th

» Next month's DNW medal auction
a  question EmptyTue Jun 30, 2020 6:45 am by 90th

» Zulu war medals on eBay
a  question EmptyMon Jun 29, 2020 5:14 pm by SergioD

» John Basten
a  question EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 1:20 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» Lieutenant Walter Robert Higginson NNC
a  question EmptySun Jun 28, 2020 11:19 am by ciroferrara

» Letter home from Eshowe
a  question EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 2:24 pm by Blackcat

» Melvill's Revolver Cylinder
a  question EmptyThu Jun 25, 2020 10:05 am by Drummer Boy 14

» Assistant Commissary W. Winspear Commissariat Department, present at Gingindlovu
a  question EmptyMon Jun 22, 2020 12:05 pm by ADMIN

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
a  question EmptySun Jun 21, 2020 7:11 pm by SRB1965

» morale and the siege at Eshowe
a  question EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 9:58 am by Blackcat

» CUNNINGHAM
a  question EmptyFri Jun 19, 2020 8:43 am by Julian Whybra

» ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
a  question EmptySat Jun 13, 2020 6:21 am by 90th

» Crimes back in England
a  question EmptyThu Jun 11, 2020 3:44 pm by Catiline63

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Rorke's Drift A Soldier's Story with presenter Major John Thomas
Top posters
90th
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
littlehand
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
ADMIN
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
1879graves
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
rusteze
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
John
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Frank Allewell
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
90th
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
WeekendWarrior
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
ADMIN
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Rory Reynolds
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
John Young
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Ells
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Brett Hendey
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
SRB1965
a  question Bar_lefta  question Bara  question Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable.2
Durnford was he capable. 3
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Adding to the Library
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.

 

 a question

Go down 
AuthorMessage
45govt

45govt

Posts : 21
Join date : 2011-10-04
Age : 62
Location : San Jose CA USA

a  question Empty
PostSubject: a question   a  question EmptyWed Nov 18, 2015 3:39 am

Hello All
I received the following in an e-mail and I am not sure where it came from.

I can't remember reading this in the limited number of books on the war I have read.

Any help would be appreciated


"Undersized. A rifle that will not chamber a loaded round is just a high priced club.The US calvary issued a bronze reamer to scrape away fouling in the chambers of breech loaders and repeaters. It didn't take too many rounds to seize up a cartridge gun in those days.
Investigating the massacre at Isandlwana tests on the Martini Henry rifles used by the British that day revealed that these rifles had jammed solid after about two dozen volleys , mainly due to unique weather conditions that day. The tests were run in an atmosphere chamber that duplicated heat and humidity of the day of battle.
The British opened fire too soon, and by the time the Zulu reached their lines most of the British rifles were jammed solid by fouling.
The British fought well with bayonets and rifle butts, but they were no match for the asega stabbing spears and bullhide shields of the Zulu in close combat."  
 



Thanks
Don
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

a  question Empty
PostSubject: A question    a  question EmptyWed Nov 18, 2015 5:40 am

Hi Don
I've never come across that statement , there is little evidence to back that up , none of those who survived mention it
happening to that extent , sure , there are some jams with Durnford's men in the Donga , but I can say I find that hard to believe on such a large scale , our resident expert on the Martini Henry Neil Aspinshaw has no doubt come across it or similar , would be interesting to see his thoughts . As an aside , I think the defenders at RD fired 20,000 Rounds or more ? and had the odd jam etc etc , there is no mention of their rifles being jammed solidly , and were no longer of any use .
90th You need to study mo
Back to top Go down
45govt

45govt

Posts : 21
Join date : 2011-10-04
Age : 62
Location : San Jose CA USA

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptyWed Nov 18, 2015 6:39 am

Hello 90th
thanks for the reply, I never read that before either and I have not ever heard of a scraper issued by the Cavalry to scrape fouling in a chamber of a Springfield "Trapdoor".

Hopefully Mr Aspinshaw will respond

Don
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptyWed Dec 16, 2015 10:33 am

Sorry all, I didn't read the post originally hence late reply.

We've gone over the "Jamming debate" on numerous occasions, in reality there was no chamber scrubber for the Martini, and there is no doubt the M-H had issues with jammed cartridges, but this was primarily caused by ultra fine sand, or as Superintendent H.T. Arbuthnot of the Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, who inspected 600 rifles returned from the Abu Klea/Abu Kru force in 1886 stated : "impalpably fine sand", fact is you simply don't get that in Zululand, and it was sand in the rifles actions, misformed cartridges and worse fine sand on the cartridges themselves (the men wore bandoliers) that caused the severe jamming there, and on the Suakin campaign in the Nubian Desert.

As nobody survived Isandlwana then it is pure supposition that jamming had even the remotest thing to do with the failure and I now tire of reading about it. It was never mentioned it the official post war debrief, and the only person to write of issues was Redvers Buller, be he chose not to mention jammed rifles, when he was questioned on this in the official Jamming report on the Sudan in 1885, he was again defensive as to him ever alluding to jamming.  

However, wind the clock forward a year and a bit. Maiwand,Helmand. 26th July 1880.  The same MkI and MkII rifles, the same MkIII ammunition, the same MkV ammo boxes,the same P71 accoutrements, Blisteringly hot, early afternoon. Arid/Desert like conditions on an open plain, an experienced British regiment the 66th (Berkshires). The Ammunition expenditure of one company that was fully recorded, H company under Lt Beresford Peirse, 4620 rounds,thats an average of 150 rounds per man, the regiment 97,075. Afghan losses, catastrophic, estimated at 5,000, but not enough for the 66th and the Indian troops to save the day. Yes reports of jamming and hot rifles (Lt Bray), but with an expenditure rate as good as or in excess of Isandlwana, then Theres Afghan assault on the Sherpor Cantonment, Kabul 23rd December 1879, by and estimated 25,000 Ghazi's, their losses, even more catastrophic, reports of jammed rifles..nil?  then all we can do is take the facts, as they stand, from contemporary actions and drawn in parallel.

9300 words on jamming in my new book out "hopefully" early spring.
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

a  question Empty
PostSubject: A question    a  question EmptyWed Dec 16, 2015 10:42 am

Thanks Neil , looking forward to the book .
90th
Back to top Go down
45govt

45govt

Posts : 21
Join date : 2011-10-04
Age : 62
Location : San Jose CA USA

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptySat Dec 26, 2015 2:44 am

Thank you all for the replies

I kind of figured it was some armchair "expert" who doesn't know what he is talking about
Back to top Go down
24th

24th

Posts : 1849
Join date : 2009-03-25

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptySun Dec 27, 2015 12:34 am

How long would it have taken to cleared a jammed rifle in Battle conditions, bearing in mind the rifles and time of clearing would have been extremely hot, through use.
Back to top Go down
45govt

45govt

Posts : 21
Join date : 2011-10-04
Age : 62
Location : San Jose CA USA

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptySun Dec 27, 2015 5:59 am

Hello 24th
I shoot black powder cartridge, trapdoors, and know from experience what it takes to remove a split case from the chamber. I have done a number of them.

When you open the block and the back half of the case pops out leaving the front half in the chamber you would have to remove the broken shell extractor from the butt of the stock if you are using the carbine and insert in the chamber and then, depending on which model extractor you are using you would use your rod to tap out the extractor and broken case with the early extractor, or close the block and tap the extractor a few times to expand the extractor so it will grip the broken case and then open the block and push the extractor and case out with the rod.

I have used both models and it only takes a minute or two, under leisurely conditions, but if you are in the heat of battle or under extreme pressure I am sure this would seem to take forever.

I doubt this was something that was drilled so unless the trooper had done it before I am sure they would resort to using the weapon as a club

Attached is a photo of the two extractors, left early right later and my rifle and carbine

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
sas1

sas1

Posts : 629
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 42

a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question EmptySun Dec 27, 2015 11:22 am

I take it there are quite a few members on here who have experienced a fire fight, not the most pleasent situation to be in. It's bad enough with modern day weapons to clear a blockage. You certainly wouldn't hang about fiddling with the weapons used back in 1879. I agree you would revert to bayonet or as the other member said a club.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




a  question Empty
PostSubject: Re: a question   a  question Empty

Back to top Go down
 
a question
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: