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 G coy positions at Isandlwana

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littlehand
Julian Whybra
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90th
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chalkie




Posts : 47
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PostSubject: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 2:51 pm

Hi,My relative Pte James White , C coy 2/24th was killed at Isandlwana. I believe C, coy wasn't present at the battle so as an ex soldier I can only presume he was attached to the only coy from his battalion that was , G, coy. Am I correct in thinking that Pope was the Of of G, coy ? and can anyone tell me where G , coy was positioned please.
Thank you ,
Paul.
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 3:09 pm

Hi chalkie, welcome mate, i'm sure you will get chapter and
verse following. xhosa

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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 3:10 pm

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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 3:11 pm

Thanks for the welcome xhosa , looking forward to picking the brains of you lot.
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 3:17 pm

Thanks mate for the map , interesting.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 5:43 pm

Welcome to the forum Chalkie

There were a number of 2/24th men left in camp from the companies that went out with Chelmsford, as well as Pope's G company that had been on piquet duty. Ian Knight says in Zulu Rising that Pope's company had almost doubled in size when it was deployed, so I think you are right that the 2/24th men from other companies had joined. Pullein deployed Pope on the far right of his defensive line, using the bigger company as an anchor. The whole line was orientated towards the line of hills to the north east which was the expected direction of the Zulu attack.

Do you have any information about James White?

Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySat Feb 06, 2016 5:51 pm

Hi Steve, No not really only that he joined the army in 1877 and was the eldest brother of my grandad , my grandad was born 1886 / 1943.my grandad was name James also, I presume in the memory of his brother which he never met, strange I know but there it is. Iam trying to find a battalion or company photo if one exists but maybe that's hoping a bit to much. Thanks Steve.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 8:07 am

Hi Chalkie
I found the following from Norman Holme's ' The Noble 24th ' ....White , James . Private 25B / 1132 ; Enlisted 3 / 2 / 77 . Served in C Co . No trace of a claim for his effects . South Africa Medal With Clasp 1877-78-79. If you or some other family member has his Medal , it's valued at about 8 - 8,500 GBP's on the current market . I've sent Steve some photos I took for him from G Co's position at Isandlwana when I was there last May , hopefully he may post them for you . I think it was you Steve ? scratch
90th
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 8:14 am

Hi 90th, That's definatley him, and no one has ever
Mentioned his medal to me . It would be great to stand at the cenotaph with his , grandad , dads and my medals on remembrance day, look like a Russian general...lol. It would be great to see the photos, thanks for the info.
Chalkie.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 8:26 am

Happy to try and help Paul , hopefully it was Steve who I sent the photo's to , come to think of it , it may be Sergio , hopefully if they read this thread they'll post them for you , I've sent that many photos here , there and everywhere , I've no idea who's got what ! LOL , at least you'll see the sights your relative also looked at . I cant imagine what he must've saw and heard before he himself joined the rest of his mates in the hereafter , bloody frightening it would've been . It's hard to imagine what happened there when your standing on that plain , with no-one else except you and the wind for company ! , it's hard to explain your feelings and thoughts Shocked Shocked , it's so quiet .
90th Salute
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 8:39 am

I've fought for my country but modern warfare isn't the same as standing in the firing line facing an enemy that wants to kill you to a man with no tactical goal but to totally destroy you. So what those lads felt I can't imagine but what a sight mate. I will get there some day.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 8:42 am

Paul , I sincerely hope you do get the chance , it's something I imagine you'll cherish , and take to the Gave with you !
90th Salute
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 9:42 am

One day maybe , Its always been top of my bucket list but never been able to unfortunately.
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 11:31 am

One day maybe , Its always been top of my bucket list but never been able to unfortunately.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 12:09 pm

Gary
You didn't send the photos to me, but if you want to I will post them.

Paul
This is 1132 James White's entry on the medal roll. You will see there are two more J White's who survived. The "no trace of issue" comment is common for those killed at Isandhlwana. Doesn't mean he didn't get one.
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Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 12:17 pm

Hi Steve , thanks for that. Are all these J Whites in C, Coy ? and is it just the J initial or are they lusted as James !
Thanks Steve.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 12:23 pm

515 was also James, 812 was John. We do not know their companies, just 2nd Battalion. Where did your James come from?

Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 12:30 pm

We all come from Hexham in Northumberland. The story of James was handed down to my late father, he told me at an early age about my grandads brother who was killed at Isandlwana and that my great grandmother went balustic when my grandad joined the army.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 9:46 pm

James White 1132 Army Record gives his duty location as Mauritius 1861.

Compiled from musters contained in the War Office Paylists held at the National Archives, Kew, the 1861 Worldwide Army Index lists all other ranks subjects serving in the April-June Quarter of 1861 together with their regimental HQ location. The index is effectively a military surrogate for the 1861 census taken on 7 April 1871.

Does that mean that he had served in Maritius or that the 2nd Battalion 24th Foot had been head quartered there at some point? Sorry about the confusion but I have seen Mauritius mentioned on a few of the 24th records.
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 9:58 pm

So are you saying he was in Mauritius in 1861 ? We were lead to believe he joined up in 1877.
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90th

90th


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PostSubject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana    G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:14 pm

Waterloo , Norman Holme's ' The Noble 24th ' has James White 25B / 1132 enlisting 3rd from memory of Feb 1877 ? ! .
90th Shocked
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:32 pm

90th wrote:
Waterloo , Norman Holme's  ' The Noble 24th ' has James White 25B / 1132 enlisting 3rd from memory of Feb 1877 ?  ! .
90th Shocked

90th I'm sure that your correct, I have just copied the details from Forces War Records. They are normally spot on. Could be a mistake, I will take a look at a few of the other records to see if there is a similar thing on them.

Here is a copy of the record.

First Name:
James  

Surname:
White  

Rank:
Private  

Service Number:
1132  

Duty Location:
Mauritius  

Service:
British Army  

Regiment:
2nd Battalion 24th Foot (2nd Warwickshire)  

Archive Reference:
WO 12/4142


Last edited by waterloo50 on Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:34 pm

That is his service number and rank , strange. Thanks waterloo.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:35 pm

Attached to the above file was:

First Name:
J

Surname:
White

Nationality:
British

Information:
KIA Isandhlwana

Rank:
Private

Service Number:
1132

Campaign Medals:
South Africa Medal (1877 79)

Clasps Awarded:
1877-8-9


Service:
British Army
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:38 pm

So I wonder what age he was at Isandlwana ?
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waterloo50

waterloo50


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:47 pm

chalkie wrote:
So I wonder what age he was at Isandlwana ?

Hello chalkie,

I'm not sure what is going on with the records, I'm pretty sure that 90th is correct about the date being Feb 1877. Here is the Archive Reference number WO 12/4142. In the Forces war records his name appears three times along with his army number. I will do a bit of digging to see what I can find out.

Regards
Waterloo
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 10:56 pm

Much appreciated Waterloo. I've always been lead to believe that 1877 was his enlistment date and he was my grandad older brother who he never met. My grandad was born 1886. I've always had the impression that James White wasbt very old when he died because my great granny was still alive when my grandad joined up in 1906 ish. Confusing...lol cheers.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 11:09 pm

Paul

Do you know the names of your Grandad's mother and father by any chance?

Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 07, 2016 11:12 pm

I do have the family tree docs in the loft, I will did them out tomorrow and put them up here.
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 2:24 pm

James White 1851/1879
Son of James White 1831/1911, Tanner of Hexham, Northumberland.
James White enlisted in 1877 at the age of 29yrs ( approx).
My Grandad ( James White ) 1886/1943 was the half brother of Pte James White as their father remarried in 1884.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 4:26 pm

Paul

Here is the 1851 census for Hexham which shows James White as a Tanner, his wife Catherine and sons Robert and James (age 4 months). So it confirms your tree details and makes it extremely unlikely that young James was with the 2/24th in Mauritius in 1863. If I find any more I will let you know.

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Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 4:34 pm

Yes I agree, certainly not Mauritius. There's no doubt in our family that James served at Isandlwana as even my grandad ( his brother ) passed the story onto my dad . I just would like to know more about him .
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 9:21 pm

chalkie wrote:
Yes I agree, certainly not Mauritius. There's no doubt in our family that James served at Isandlwana as even my grandad ( his brother ) passed the story onto my dad . I just would like to know more about him .

Hi Chalkie,

Sorry if the War Forces records that I posted added confusion to your research, I just copied the records as they were presented to me. I have no idea why his name, rank and number would indicate the earlier date and place of service. I'm thinking that I may have to send FWR an e-mail asking them to re-check or at least amend that record.
Regards
Waterloo
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 9:24 pm

No mate, that's perfectly fine, got to explore all avenues mate , not a problem at all, I think its great that you lads are interested in our James as I like to call him.
Chalkie.
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waterloo50

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 9:48 pm

chalkie wrote:
No mate, that's perfectly fine, got to explore all avenues mate , not a problem at all, I think its great that you lads are interested in our James as I like to call him.
Chalkie.

Its important to keep the memory of these men alive. I wouldn't be able to name all of the men that died at Isandlwana but at least I now know the name 'James White'.


Last edited by waterloo50 on Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 9:51 pm

Definatley waterloo, couldn't agree more.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyMon Feb 08, 2016 10:03 pm

I agree with that. We spend a lot of time discusssing the well known names but the men that perished at Isandhlwana are largely unknown aside from a couple of lines in Noble 24th or England's Sons. Being able to identify who they left behind and where they came from is quite rare.  They all have a story to tell but it is hidden for the majority.

Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 7:28 am

I would like to see G coys positions at Isandlwana so if some has any pics that would be great. Does anyone have a 2/24th battalion photo as well please by any chance ?
Paul.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 9:38 am

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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:22 am

Thanks Ray63, nice photo is there a 2/24th battalion one anywhere ?
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:34 am

Thanks Ray63, nice photo is there a 2/24th battalion one anywhere ?
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:39 am

This is a good photo of the neck area with the road from RD coming from right to left. It is taken from the southern end of Isandhlwana. The end of the camp straddled the road on the downward slope and it is the area where the last stands took place. Pope's Company finished up on or near the neck and it is likely that some of the troopers lie under the cairns you can see. We do not know which ones. G Company began the battle further out on the plain to the left. I do not have a note of who took the photo so cannot acknowledge.

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Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:45 am

Steve that's great , thank you. So this is the area where James died ? Thanks again Steve .
Paul.
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Ray63

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:46 am

I still find in hard to understand why they were sent so far from the camp.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:56 am

Paul

All that can be said with certainty is that James would have died somewhere between the original firing line off to the left and the last stands here on the neck. I will try and find another photo that shows more ground to the east. But you have more certainty than most as to where James fell because you can be pretty confident he was with G Company 2/24th. For the vast majority (including a relative of mine) we have no idea which company they were with and hence we do not know where they were located on the day.

Steve
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ymob

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 10:58 am

From memory a photography of the  2/24th was borrowed by Stanley Baker to the Brecon Museum for the famous film Zulu. He never restituted it.
I am not sure of my memory. Happy to be corrected. I am sure Isandula or John Young have the answer.
Cheers
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 11:06 am

The help from you lads has been great so thank you all for that. Ray63 , I agree , Iam a little puzzled why the firing line was as far out but the officers must have had their reasons.Rusteze, who was your relative ? be interested to know.
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eaton

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 11:10 am

Ray63 wrote:
I still find in hard to understand why they were sent so far from the camp.  

Likewise, but I think it all to do with the arrogance displayed by senior officers towards hostile native forces at that time.

" Oh just sweep them aside" said one officer to Hamilton-Browne.
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rusteze

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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 11:51 am

L. Cpl. 489 Henry Wetherhead 1/24th. There is a thread on here somewhere but I cannot find it!

Steve
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chalkie




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PostSubject: Re: G coy positions at Isandlwana   G coy positions at Isandlwana EmptyTue Feb 09, 2016 11:53 am

I see, who's in your avitar then ?
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