G coy positions at Isandlwana

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Hi,My relative Pte James White , C coy 2/24th was killed at Isandlwana. I believe C, coy wasn't present at the battle so as an ex soldier I can only presume he was attached to the only coy from his battalion that was , G, coy. Am I correct in thinking that Pope was the Of of G, coy ? and can anyone tell me where G , coy was positioned please.
Thank you ,
Paul.

Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

Hi chalkie, welcome mate, i'm sure you will get chapter and
verse following. xhosa

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Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24

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Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Thanks for the welcome xhosa , looking forward to picking the brains of you lot.

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Thanks mate for the map , interesting.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Welcome to the forum Chalkie

There were a number of 2/24th men left in camp from the companies that went out with Chelmsford, as well as Pope's G company that had been on piquet duty. Ian Knight says in Zulu Rising that Pope's company had almost doubled in size when it was deployed, so I think you are right that the 2/24th men from other companies had joined. Pullein deployed Pope on the far right of his defensive line, using the bigger company as an anchor. The whole line was orientated towards the line of hills to the north east which was the expected direction of the Zulu attack.

Do you have any information about James White?

Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Hi Steve, No not really only that he joined the army in 1877 and was the eldest brother of my grandad , my grandad was born 1886 / 1943.my grandad was name James also, I presume in the memory of his brother which he never met, strange I know but there it is. Iam trying to find a battalion or company photo if one exists but maybe that's hoping a bit to much. Thanks Steve.

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:07 am

Hi Chalkie
I found the following from Norman Holme's ' The Noble 24th ' ....White , James . Private 25B / 1132 ; Enlisted 3 / 2 / 77 . Served in C Co . No trace of a claim for his effects . South Africa Medal With Clasp 1877-78-79. If you or some other family member has his Medal , it's valued at about 8 - 8,500 GBP's on the current market . I've sent Steve some photos I took for him from G Co's position at Isandlwana when I was there last May , hopefully he may post them for you . I think it was you Steve ? scratch

90th

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Hi 90th, That's definatley him, and no one has ever
Mentioned his medal to me . It would be great to stand at the cenotaph with his , grandad , dads and my medals on remembrance day, look like a Russian general...lol. It would be great to see the photos, thanks for the info.
Chalkie.

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:26 am

Happy to try and help Paul , hopefully it was Steve who I sent the photo's to , come to think of it , it may be Sergio , hopefully if they read this thread they'll post them for you , I've sent that many photos here , there and everywhere , I've no idea who's got what ! LOL , at least you'll see the sights your relative also looked at . I cant imagine what he must've saw and heard before he himself joined the rest of his mates in the hereafter , bloody frightening it would've been . It's hard to imagine what happened there when your standing on that plain , with no-one else except you and the wind for company ! , it's hard to explain your feelings and thoughts Shocked

, it's so quiet .
90th Salute

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

I've fought for my country but modern warfare isn't the same as standing in the firing line facing an enemy that wants to kill you to a man with no tactical goal but to totally destroy you. So what those lads felt I can't imagine but what a sight mate. I will get there some day.

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:42 am

Paul , I sincerely hope you do get the chance , it's something I imagine you'll cherish , and take to the Gave with you !
90th Salute

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

One day maybe , Its always been top of my bucket list but never been able to unfortunately.

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

One day maybe , Its always been top of my bucket list but never been able to unfortunately.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Gary
You didn't send the photos to me, but if you want to I will post them.

Paul
This is 1132 James White's entry on the medal roll. You will see there are two more J White's who survived. The "no trace of issue" comment is common for those killed at Isandhlwana. Doesn't mean he didn't get one.
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Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Hi Steve , thanks for that. Are all these J Whites in C, Coy ? and is it just the J initial or are they lusted as James !
Thanks Steve.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

515 was also James, 812 was John. We do not know their companies, just 2nd Battalion. Where did your James come from?

Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

We all come from Hexham in Northumberland. The story of James was handed down to my late father, he told me at an early age about my grandads brother who was killed at Isandlwana and that my great grandmother went balustic when my grandad joined the army.

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

James White 1132 Army Record gives his duty location as Mauritius 1861.

Compiled from musters contained in the War Office Paylists held at the National Archives, Kew, the 1861 Worldwide Army Index lists all other ranks subjects serving in the April-June Quarter of 1861 together with their regimental HQ location. The index is effectively a military surrogate for the 1861 census taken on 7 April 1871.

Does that mean that he had served in Maritius or that the 2nd Battalion 24th Foot had been head quartered there at some point? Sorry about the confusion but I have seen Mauritius mentioned on a few of the 24th records.

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

So are you saying he was in Mauritius in 1861 ? We were lead to believe he joined up in 1877.

Subject: G Co Positions at Isandlwana Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:14 pm

Waterloo , Norman Holme's ' The Noble 24th ' has James White 25B / 1132 enlisting 3rd from memory of Feb 1877 ? ! .
90th Shocked

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

90th wrote:: Waterloo , Norman Holme's ' The Noble 24th ' has James White 25B / 1132 enlisting 3rd from memory of Feb 1877 ? ! .
90th

90th I'm sure that your correct, I have just copied the details from Forces War Records. They are normally spot on. Could be a mistake, I will take a look at a few of the other records to see if there is a similar thing on them.

Here is a copy of the record.

First Name:
James

Surname:
White

Rank:
Private

Service Number:
1132

Duty Location:
Mauritius

Service:
British Army

Regiment:
2nd Battalion 24th Foot (2nd Warwickshire)

Archive Reference:
WO 12/4142

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

That is his service number and rank , strange. Thanks waterloo.

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

Attached to the above file was:

First Name:
J

Surname:
White

Nationality:
British

Information:
KIA Isandhlwana

Rank:
Private

Service Number:
1132

Campaign Medals:
South Africa Medal (1877 79)

Clasps Awarded:
1877-8-9

Service:
British Army

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

So I wonder what age he was at Isandlwana ?

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

chalkie wrote:: So I wonder what age he was at Isandlwana ?

Hello chalkie,

I'm not sure what is going on with the records, I'm pretty sure that 90th is correct about the date being Feb 1877. Here is the Archive Reference number WO 12/4142. In the Forces war records his name appears three times along with his army number. I will do a bit of digging to see what I can find out.

Regards
Waterloo

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Much appreciated Waterloo. I've always been lead to believe that 1877 was his enlistment date and he was my grandad older brother who he never met. My grandad was born 1886. I've always had the impression that James White wasbt very old when he died because my great granny was still alive when my grandad joined up in 1906 ish. Confusing...lol cheers.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Paul

Do you know the names of your Grandad's mother and father by any chance?

Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

I do have the family tree docs in the loft, I will did them out tomorrow and put them up here.

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

James White 1851/1879
Son of James White 1831/1911, Tanner of Hexham, Northumberland.
James White enlisted in 1877 at the age of 29yrs ( approx).
My Grandad ( James White ) 1886/1943 was the half brother of Pte James White as their father remarried in 1884.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Paul

Here is the 1851 census for Hexham which shows James White as a Tanner, his wife Catherine and sons Robert and James (age 4 months). So it confirms your tree details and makes it extremely unlikely that young James was with the 2/24th in Mauritius in 1863. If I find any more I will let you know.

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Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Yes I agree, certainly not Mauritius. There's no doubt in our family that James served at Isandlwana as even my grandad ( his brother ) passed the story onto my dad . I just would like to know more about him .

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

chalkie wrote:: Yes I agree, certainly not Mauritius. There's no doubt in our family that James served at Isandlwana as even my grandad ( his brother ) passed the story onto my dad . I just would like to know more about him .

Hi Chalkie,

Sorry if the War Forces records that I posted added confusion to your research, I just copied the records as they were presented to me. I have no idea why his name, rank and number would indicate the earlier date and place of service. I'm thinking that I may have to send FWR an e-mail asking them to re-check or at least amend that record.
Regards
Waterloo

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

No mate, that's perfectly fine, got to explore all avenues mate , not a problem at all, I think its great that you lads are interested in our James as I like to call him.
Chalkie.

Posts : 600 Join date : 2013-09-18 Location : West Country

chalkie wrote:: No mate, that's perfectly fine, got to explore all avenues mate , not a problem at all, I think its great that you lads are interested in our James as I like to call him.
Chalkie.

Its important to keep the memory of these men alive. I wouldn't be able to name all of the men that died at Isandlwana but at least I now know the name 'James White'.

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Definatley waterloo, couldn't agree more.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I agree with that. We spend a lot of time discusssing the well known names but the men that perished at Isandhlwana are largely unknown aside from a couple of lines in Noble 24th or England's Sons. Being able to identify who they left behind and where they came from is quite rare. They all have a story to tell but it is hidden for the majority.

Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

I would like to see G coys positions at Isandlwana so if some has any pics that would be great. Does anyone have a 2/24th battalion photo as well please by any chance ?
Paul.

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

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Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Thanks Ray63, nice photo is there a 2/24th battalion one anywhere ?

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Thanks Ray63, nice photo is there a 2/24th battalion one anywhere ?

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

This is a good photo of the neck area with the road from RD coming from right to left. It is taken from the southern end of Isandhlwana. The end of the camp straddled the road on the downward slope and it is the area where the last stands took place. Pope's Company finished up on or near the neck and it is likely that some of the troopers lie under the cairns you can see. We do not know which ones. G Company began the battle further out on the plain to the left. I do not have a note of who took the photo so cannot acknowledge.

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Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

Steve that's great , thank you. So this is the area where James died ? Thanks again Steve .
Paul.

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

I still find in hard to understand why they were sent so far from the camp.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Paul

All that can be said with certainty is that James would have died somewhere between the original firing line off to the left and the last stands here on the neck. I will try and find another photo that shows more ground to the east. But you have more certainty than most as to where James fell because you can be pretty confident he was with G Company 2/24th. For the vast majority (including a relative of mine) we have no idea which company they were with and hence we do not know where they were located on the day.

Steve

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

From memory a photography of the 2/24th was borrowed by Stanley Baker to the Brecon Museum for the famous film Zulu. He never restituted it.
I am not sure of my memory. Happy to be corrected. I am sure Isandula or John Young have the answer.
Cheers

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

The help from you lads has been great so thank you all for that. Ray63 , I agree , Iam a little puzzled why the firing line was as far out but the officers must have had their reasons.Rusteze, who was your relative ? be interested to know.

Posts : 72 Join date : 2016-01-20

Ray63 wrote:: I still find in hard to understand why they were sent so far from the camp.

Likewise, but I think it all to do with the arrogance displayed by senior officers towards hostile native forces at that time.

" Oh just sweep them aside" said one officer to Hamilton-Browne.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

L. Cpl. 489 Henry Wetherhead 1/24th. There is a thread on here somewhere but I cannot find it!

Steve

Posts : 47 Join date : 2016-02-06

I see, who's in your avitar then ?

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