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Mr M. Cooper
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 8:43 am

These are the original hand drawn survey notes compiled by Lt Mainwaring. For me the interesting point is the road position and the distance from the conical Kopie at slightly over 1000 yards its an interesting exersize to compute the numbers of Popes Company and see exactly how far apart they actually were.
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Regards
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 11:14 am

Great find Frank. At first glance the orientation of the sketch appears to be roughly ENE (with Isandhlwana at middle top of the map?). What we also have here, that does not appear anywhere else so far as I know, are his triangulation points from which he took his bearings - presumably with a theodolite or a plane table. I think he has noted his angles as well as the calculated distances. He seems to have used four locations to fix his angles, Black's Kopie, Conical Kopie, a Kraal, and I think either the Knoll or the Spur. He has taken a reading for either end of Isandhlwana from the Kraal. I wonder if he tried to climb it to take further bearings but gave up. It might be interesting to try and find his survey points on the ground - perhaps check his angles. Too much to hope that there is any evidence of his presence remaining.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 11:30 am

And the end result
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Sorry don't have a clue how to rotate it.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 11:40 am

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 11:51 am

Steve
If you look at the angles of direction from and to the mountain they focus on a single point, for the triangulation. Ive had a careful look at the photos trying to determine which point that is. I cant make up my mind if he has selected a point on top of the mountain to focus on or a point lower down. If its a point lower down it picks up the cave area that Ian Knight has always advocated as being THE cave. Again Mainwaring specifically states that the point he tried to ascend was on the EASTERN face and to my mind that puts him around those intersecting angles. or am I clutching at straws?
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 11:59 am

An exercise on the distribution of Popes company, if they were stationed as stated by Symonds, squads of 4, then they would have been separated by the length of a cricket pitch. If spread out as individuals then around 6 to 7 yards in between each man. The thin red line indeed.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 12:03 pm

I wondered the same thing, they seem to focus on the south eastern tip of the mountain, arguably below the summit.
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Something else I cannot get my brain around at the moment. Mainwearing's final map is dated 13/11/79. Anstey and Penrose's map of the battlefield in the Narrative is dated 11/11/1879. They would surely not have surveyed it twice at that time. Are we sure the sketch map, which has clearly been surveyed by triangulation, is Mainwearing's?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 12:17 pm

Its annotated on the bottom left hand corner without being signed but dated as September. In another string I have posted his finding of the cave. In that discourse he mentions again the month and that his job was to measure the battlefield. Would the possibility exist that Mainwarings map is of the battlefield, this was then used by Penrose et al as a basis to indicate the military situation for the narrative?
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 12:39 pm

Yet another mystery. Taking all those angles from a number of high points in rough country is no mean undertaking. The Ansty and Penrose map says it was surveyed by them. Your sketch says "done on the ground". Mainwearing's final printed map is still called a "Sketch Map" but doesn't say he surveyed it. Logic would say that Anstey and Penrose did the surveying and Mainwearing added the positions of the graves to their survey rather than the other way around. Intriguing!

I still like the idea that the cave is the focus though.

Steve
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 2:02 pm

Just noticed something else on the sketch. For triangulation to work you have to start with a measured baseline - physically measured on the ground, usually by using surveyors chains. Once you have accurately measured the baseline you can calculate all of the other distances by measuring the angles and using Pythagorus Theorem (remember chanting at school - the square on the hypontenuse !). It looks like the baseline was between the Kraal and Conical Kopie which is measured at 1030 yards.

It also occurs to me that it's quite likely a small physical feature on the mountain (like a cave mouth) would be chosen to focus on, providing it was visible from a number of survey points. The problem with choosing the apparent top of the mountain as a target would be that it would likely look different from one survey point to another depending on the elevation you were at. Just a thought.

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 2:19 pm

Two separate surveys perhaps. There are some very significant differences, orientation to North, layout of the camp site, positions of Kralls etc. As to which one the hand drawn map belongs to, Im really inclined to go with you Steve and attribute it Anstey and Penrose. The phrase Military Survey has pushed me towards that slant.
Mainwaring did another sketch by the way on the 24th February 1879 titled 'from memory.
At the risk of repetition, this is my post under another topic. The key phrase is that Mainwarings duty was to produce a survey.
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So saying then would there possibly have been an appointment from the 'intelligence branch' to have two profesionals ie Royal Engineers, produce a 'survey' and a 24th member produce a 'graveyard' sketch whilst the burials were taking place?
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptyWed Jul 06, 2016 4:26 pm

I think that's the most likely scenario. As a regimental officer he is unlikely to have done a trigonometrical survey, that's what the RE is for (plus of course leading the odd column of native horse!).

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 1:58 am

'Pythagorus Theorem', Good Lord! that takes me back a bit, back to my school days in fact.

Our Maths teacher was always going on about this, and he used to pick on someone and ask them "what is the value of Py". I just couldn't understand all this 'Pythagorus' stuff, it just wouldn't sink in, and was always getting things wrong in my maths work book, so one day the teacher decided he would pick on me to tell the class what the value of Py was.

He said, Cooper, what is the value of Py, to which I replied, is it a meat or potato pie Sir, you can just imagine what happened next, the class was in stitches with laughter, however, I was in deep trouble, and I was dragged by my ear to see the head master, and he wasn't very happy, neither was I afterwards, I could hardly sit down. Oh happy days! (sarc).
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impi

impi


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 9:18 am

No Rolling Eyes
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 12:09 pm

Pythagoros.
Once upon a time an indian chief was presented two lion hides and a hypopotemus hide, one for each of his wives. In due course the wives sleeping on the lion hides had a son each but the wife who slept on the Hypopotamus hide had twin sons.
Hence Pythagoros theory was proved.
The Sons of the squaws on the two hides are equal to the squaw on the hypopotamus.

Not a lot of people know that.
Very Happy
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 12:59 pm

Since when did an Indian Chief have access to lions and hippopotamus! Plainly good at maths Frank, but not so much geography. Perhaps it was a Zulu Chief?

Steve
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 3:15 pm

Hundreds of Indians in South Africa. Salute Salute Very Happy
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 5:33 pm

With their squaws.

Steve
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Mr M. Cooper

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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 6:25 pm

Good one Frank.

Many years ago the lad used to have a pet mouse, it was a very large mouse (no, it wasn't a rat), we used to call it 'Hippopotamouse' Very Happy

I don't know about SQUAWS, but I can assure you that there were plenty of SQUAWKS coming from the headmasters office when I was taken there, I never mentioned meat or potato pies again during maths lessons, but I never could work out the value of Py when the teacher gave us a sum to work out, he gave up in the end, I wonder why he did that scratch
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 6:50 pm

Frank
The one I learnt ran:
There were three Indian squaws. One slept on a deer skin, one slept on an elk skin, and the third slept on a hippopotamus skin. All three became pregnant. The first two each had a baby boy. The one who slept on the hippopotamus skin had twin boys. This just goes to prove that the squaw of the hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 7:16 pm

Steves going to pick you out, Indians had no access to Hippo. ( Hes never been to Durban)
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 8:19 pm

You see. You have to have squaws and hippos or it doesn't work. And its got to be "on" the hippopotamus Julian not "of". What about using squires and hippopotamus - but how do you get them pregnant? Foolish boy!. But you've all learnt it now despite yourselves and might all be budding Everests.

Steve
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John Young

John Young


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySat Jul 09, 2016 11:18 pm

Steve,

Rather than Sir George Everest, I think Henry Haversham Godwin-Austen would have been more appropriate for Isandlwana.

John Y.
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 12:59 am

Yes, your right, first practising Buddhist in the UK? But could his brother have used a theodolite half way up K2?

Steve
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 10:58 am

Cinncinnati zoo?
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rusteze

rusteze


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 12:20 pm

Now your clutching at squaws.

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Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 1:38 pm

Or in my case,

'The squawk I made when the cane hit my hip bone was equal to the squawks I made when the cane hit the other two cheeks of my hide'.

OK, yes, I really am clutching at squaws. Shocked

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impi

impi


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 5:47 pm

Martin no one is interested in your childish trip down memory lane,stick to what the forum is designed for.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 7:32 pm

Oh, impi, come on, live and let live!
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xhosa2000

xhosa2000


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PostSubject: Re: Battlefield Survey   Battlefield Survey EmptySun Jul 10, 2016 8:54 pm

The most awful pun's!!. made me chuckle out loud,
good craic.
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