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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 Isandlwana coat colours

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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 808
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptySun Jul 02, 2017 8:34 pm

Hi,

Just for a laugh, I have looked at the list of (Imperial) survivors from Isandlwana and put them into ‘tunic’ colours based on the uniforms worn at the time (true, the tunic could have been discarded leaving shirtsleeves but it’s just something I am playing with.)

I’m not sure the total survivor was 38 but here we go....

I believe the ‘lucky five’ all wore the dark blue patrol jacket.

Bombardier Gough (rockets) and the 9 men of N5 RA would also have worn dark blue.

Trainer, Grant, Johnson (rockets) plus Bickley, Wilson (bandsmen) & Williams (groom) would have been in red, as would the 17 men of the IMI

So we have 15 men in blue and 23 in redcoats escaping.

If you then add the Volunteers, NNC officers and civvies, the number of dark (or non red tunics who survived) outnumber the redcoats but also most of these already had access to horses.

I think that given the position of the rocket battery, Trainer, Grant and Johnson were lucky they survived regardless of coat colour...

Have I missed anyone?

Cheers

Simon
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2103
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptySun Jul 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Simon,

Where are you getting the figure of seventeen members of No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry surviving from?

In my somewhat dated work They Fell Like Stones... I only record nine survivors from the squadron.

In his work Hill of the Sphinx, David Jackson added another name, that of Private John Gascoigne, of 2nd/3rd, to the figure I had arrived, making ten survivors from No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry.

I don't know what number Julian currently has for the survivors of the squadron, but I think your figure of seventeen is somewhat high.

Just my thoughts.

John Y.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 808
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 6:01 am

Hi john,

I will be honest I cheated and used  a quick Google search and came up with:-

http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2770&sid=6d6279c5708d581e12303808629c3ae1

I thought 17 seemed a little high but I picked up the ball and ran with it.

I have your book but with the majority of my ZW library, its packed away in the loft.

It gave me something to do whilst Mrs SRB was stuck glued to Poldark..... Surprised

Cheers

Simon
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90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Coat Colours    Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 1:15 pm

Hi Simon
The last time I checked I think Julian Whybra has 55 as the total number of undisputed Isandlwana Survivors .
90th You need to study mo
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2103
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 1:26 pm

90th,

The figure of fifty-five European survivors was put to bed by David Jackson in his original research.

Despite that the number of fifty-five European survivors still appears in works on the subject which post-date his original publication in 1965.

John Y.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Isandlwana Coat Colours    Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 1:40 pm

Hi JY
So what are you saying... 55 is incorrect ? , if so , what is the attributed number of survivors ? .
90th Salute
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2103
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 2:41 pm

Gary,

Yes, despite the fact that more recent authors maintain the figure of fifty-five European survivors.  F. W. David Jackson put pay to that figure as far back as 1965 in his original research Isandhlwana: the Sources Re-examined.

Personally, I would say the figure is at least seventy-eight European survivors, but I would defer to Julian as his research on this matter is far more current than my own.

You are obviously reading the wrong publications on the subject, things have moved on from Coupland...

John Y.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 4:10 pm

Hi SRB1965
The next edition of England's Sons will show 92 European survivors and 2 possible survivors, all with appropriate provenance.
11 of these survivors come from the IMI (with another 11 kia).
To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing.  Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves.
I am busy working on Studies in the Zulu War volume IV and I think you will find a few interesting surprises in it when it comes out hopefully in November.

John
Thank you.  Nice to hear from you by the way albeit second-hand!
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2103
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 4:29 pm

Julian,

Yes I'm still here, I can get back in the fray for a short while, whilst the Indian Mutiny work goes back to the publishers.

John Y.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 808
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyMon Jul 03, 2017 7:00 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:

To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing.  Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves.

Hi Julian, that's going to part two of my project.....probably during the 'next exciting episode' of Poldark......

I will have get my ZW books down from the library/loft......
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90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Survivors    Isandlwana coat colours EmptyTue Jul 04, 2017 6:19 am

JY
Hahahahahahaha , Coupland , I thought it was England's Sons that listed the figure of 55 ? , obviously not Shocked Shocked
Anyway , the more the merrier ! . Have you heard from our mate ' The Major ' , he's a bloody funny man isn't he ? . He was toying with the idea of going to the Sudan , Abu Klea from memory , is it safe to go there ? . Would be interesting to set foot on that site .
90th Salute
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

Isandlwana coat colours Empty
PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyTue Jul 04, 2017 9:27 am

90th
No, I don't believe I've ever been as low as 55 except perhaps after the first time I read TWOTS back in 1966. I think within a few weeks of reading him I'd done my own calculation which made it well over that.
A forum member said to me recently that pretty soon there'll be more survivors from Isandhlwana than those who were kia. Joking of course, it'll never come to that...but it wouldn't surprise me if there are still a few more to be found. Several waggon drivers for a start who left early-ish, many of course without a horse and were overtaken, but there must still have been some who managed it. And perhaps an IMI or two slipped beneath the radar.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Coat Colours    Isandlwana coat colours EmptyTue Jul 04, 2017 10:41 am

Thanks Julian for posting much appreciated . What's the number currently of definite Isandlwana survivors according to your research ?, as you say there are probably many more just waiting to be found and scrutinized .
90th Salute
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2329
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours   Isandlwana coat colours EmptyTue Jul 04, 2017 11:50 am

90th
See my post of yesterday of 3.10.
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90th

90th

Posts : 10089
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Isandlwana Coat Colours    Isandlwana coat colours EmptyTue Jul 04, 2017 12:08 pm

Thanks Julian .
90th Salute
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