Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James OwenThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at IsandhlwanaWed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNCThu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked CampWed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra » Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diaryMon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at largeSun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman » Baron Von SteitencronWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra » Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - MemorialTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th » Writing adviceSun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra » South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage DiaryThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort LocationsThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th RegimentWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper » Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA IsandlwanaThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879 » Hamilton Browne's birthdayFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra » Zulu "Corps"Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes » Army Pay Department PersonnelThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra » Ntshingwayo birth dateSun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes » Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's familyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra » Smith's Store/HotelWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Shaka iLembeSat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84 » Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment Sat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman » Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh PollardTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.Sat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra » Fairlie's Native PoliceThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes |
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New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James OwenThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at IsandhlwanaWed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNCWed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked CampSun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
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| | Isandlwana coat colours | |
| | Author | Message |
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SRB1965
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Isandlwana coat colours Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:34 pm | |
| Hi,
Just for a laugh, I have looked at the list of (Imperial) survivors from Isandlwana and put them into ‘tunic’ colours based on the uniforms worn at the time (true, the tunic could have been discarded leaving shirtsleeves but it’s just something I am playing with.)
I’m not sure the total survivor was 38 but here we go....
I believe the ‘lucky five’ all wore the dark blue patrol jacket.
Bombardier Gough (rockets) and the 9 men of N5 RA would also have worn dark blue.
Trainer, Grant, Johnson (rockets) plus Bickley, Wilson (bandsmen) & Williams (groom) would have been in red, as would the 17 men of the IMI
So we have 15 men in blue and 23 in redcoats escaping.
If you then add the Volunteers, NNC officers and civvies, the number of dark (or non red tunics who survived) outnumber the redcoats but also most of these already had access to horses.
I think that given the position of the rocket battery, Trainer, Grant and Johnson were lucky they survived regardless of coat colour...
Have I missed anyone?
Cheers
Simon
|
| | | John Young
Posts : 3256 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:51 pm | |
| Simon,
Where are you getting the figure of seventeen members of No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry surviving from?
In my somewhat dated work They Fell Like Stones... I only record nine survivors from the squadron.
In his work Hill of the Sphinx, David Jackson added another name, that of Private John Gascoigne, of 2nd/3rd, to the figure I had arrived, making ten survivors from No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry.
I don't know what number Julian currently has for the survivors of the squadron, but I think your figure of seventeen is somewhat high.
Just my thoughts.
John Y. |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:01 am | |
| Hi john, I will be honest I cheated and used a quick Google search and came up with:- http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2770&sid=6d6279c5708d581e12303808629c3ae1 I thought 17 seemed a little high but I picked up the ball and ran with it. I have your book but with the majority of my ZW library, its packed away in the loft. It gave me something to do whilst Mrs SRB was stuck glued to Poldark..... Cheers Simon |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Coat Colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:15 pm | |
| Hi Simon The last time I checked I think Julian Whybra has 55 as the total number of undisputed Isandlwana Survivors . 90th |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3256 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:26 pm | |
| 90th,
The figure of fifty-five European survivors was put to bed by David Jackson in his original research.
Despite that the number of fifty-five European survivors still appears in works on the subject which post-date his original publication in 1965.
John Y. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Coat Colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:40 pm | |
| Hi JY So what are you saying... 55 is incorrect ? , if so , what is the attributed number of survivors ? . 90th |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3256 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:41 pm | |
| Gary,
Yes, despite the fact that more recent authors maintain the figure of fifty-five European survivors. F. W. David Jackson put pay to that figure as far back as 1965 in his original research Isandhlwana: the Sources Re-examined.
Personally, I would say the figure is at least seventy-eight European survivors, but I would defer to Julian as his research on this matter is far more current than my own.
You are obviously reading the wrong publications on the subject, things have moved on from Coupland...
John Y. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:10 pm | |
| Hi SRB1965 The next edition of England's Sons will show 92 European survivors and 2 possible survivors, all with appropriate provenance. 11 of these survivors come from the IMI (with another 11 kia). To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing. Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves. I am busy working on Studies in the Zulu War volume IV and I think you will find a few interesting surprises in it when it comes out hopefully in November.
John Thank you. Nice to hear from you by the way albeit second-hand! |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3256 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:29 pm | |
| Julian,
Yes I'm still here, I can get back in the fray for a short while, whilst the Indian Mutiny work goes back to the publishers.
John Y. |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:00 pm | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing. Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves. Hi Julian, that's going to part two of my project.....probably during the 'next exciting episode' of Poldark...... I will have get my ZW books down from the library/loft...... |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:19 am | |
| JY Hahahahahahaha , Coupland , I thought it was England's Sons that listed the figure of 55 ? , obviously not Anyway , the more the merrier ! . Have you heard from our mate ' The Major ' , he's a bloody funny man isn't he ? . He was toying with the idea of going to the Sudan , Abu Klea from memory , is it safe to go there ? . Would be interesting to set foot on that site . 90th |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:27 am | |
| 90th No, I don't believe I've ever been as low as 55 except perhaps after the first time I read TWOTS back in 1966. I think within a few weeks of reading him I'd done my own calculation which made it well over that. A forum member said to me recently that pretty soon there'll be more survivors from Isandhlwana than those who were kia. Joking of course, it'll never come to that...but it wouldn't surprise me if there are still a few more to be found. Several waggon drivers for a start who left early-ish, many of course without a horse and were overtaken, but there must still have been some who managed it. And perhaps an IMI or two slipped beneath the radar. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Coat Colours Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:41 am | |
| Thanks Julian for posting much appreciated . What's the number currently of definite Isandlwana survivors according to your research ?, as you say there are probably many more just waiting to be found and scrutinized . 90th |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana coat colours Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:50 am | |
| 90th See my post of yesterday of 3.10. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10890 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana Coat Colours Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:08 pm | |
| Thanks Julian . 90th |
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