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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
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Posts : 808 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 55 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
Subject: Isandlwana coat colours Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:34 pm
Hi,
Just for a laugh, I have looked at the list of (Imperial) survivors from Isandlwana and put them into ‘tunic’ colours based on the uniforms worn at the time (true, the tunic could have been discarded leaving shirtsleeves but it’s just something I am playing with.)
I’m not sure the total survivor was 38 but here we go....
I believe the ‘lucky five’ all wore the dark blue patrol jacket.
Bombardier Gough (rockets) and the 9 men of N5 RA would also have worn dark blue.
Trainer, Grant, Johnson (rockets) plus Bickley, Wilson (bandsmen) & Williams (groom) would have been in red, as would the 17 men of the IMI
So we have 15 men in blue and 23 in redcoats escaping.
If you then add the Volunteers, NNC officers and civvies, the number of dark (or non red tunics who survived) outnumber the redcoats but also most of these already had access to horses.
I think that given the position of the rocket battery, Trainer, Grant and Johnson were lucky they survived regardless of coat colour...
Have I missed anyone?
Cheers
Simon
John Young
Posts : 2103 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 64 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
Where are you getting the figure of seventeen members of No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry surviving from?
In my somewhat dated work They Fell Like Stones... I only record nine survivors from the squadron.
In his work Hill of the Sphinx, David Jackson added another name, that of Private John Gascoigne, of 2nd/3rd, to the figure I had arrived, making ten survivors from No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry.
I don't know what number Julian currently has for the survivors of the squadron, but I think your figure of seventeen is somewhat high.
Just my thoughts.
John Y.
SRB1965
Posts : 808 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 55 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
Yes, despite the fact that more recent authors maintain the figure of fifty-five European survivors. F. W. David Jackson put pay to that figure as far back as 1965 in his original research Isandhlwana: the Sources Re-examined.
Personally, I would say the figure is at least seventy-eight European survivors, but I would defer to Julian as his research on this matter is far more current than my own.
You are obviously reading the wrong publications on the subject, things have moved on from Coupland...
Hi SRB1965 The next edition of England's Sons will show 92 European survivors and 2 possible survivors, all with appropriate provenance. 11 of these survivors come from the IMI (with another 11 kia). To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing. Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves. I am busy working on Studies in the Zulu War volume IV and I think you will find a few interesting surprises in it when it comes out hopefully in November.
John Thank you. Nice to hear from you by the way albeit second-hand!
John Young
Posts : 2103 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 64 Location : Lower Sheering, Essex
To be accurate in your assessment, you would need to read all the surviving accounts to discover what they were wearing. Some of the IMI for instance recorded that they escaped in their shirtsleeves.
Hi Julian, that's going to part two of my project.....probably during the 'next exciting episode' of Poldark......
I will have get my ZW books down from the library/loft......
90th
Posts : 10089 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 64 Location : Melbourne, Australia
Subject: Isandlwana Survivors Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:19 am
JY Hahahahahahaha , Coupland , I thought it was England's Sons that listed the figure of 55 ? , obviously not Anyway , the more the merrier ! . Have you heard from our mate ' The Major ' , he's a bloody funny man isn't he ? . He was toying with the idea of going to the Sudan , Abu Klea from memory , is it safe to go there ? . Would be interesting to set foot on that site . 90th
90th No, I don't believe I've ever been as low as 55 except perhaps after the first time I read TWOTS back in 1966. I think within a few weeks of reading him I'd done my own calculation which made it well over that. A forum member said to me recently that pretty soon there'll be more survivors from Isandhlwana than those who were kia. Joking of course, it'll never come to that...but it wouldn't surprise me if there are still a few more to be found. Several waggon drivers for a start who left early-ish, many of course without a horse and were overtaken, but there must still have been some who managed it. And perhaps an IMI or two slipped beneath the radar.
90th
Posts : 10089 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 64 Location : Melbourne, Australia
Subject: Isandlwana Coat Colours Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:41 am
Thanks Julian for posting much appreciated . What's the number currently of definite Isandlwana survivors according to your research ?, as you say there are probably many more just waiting to be found and scrutinized . 90th
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