WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Isandlwana, Last Stands
Additional ammunition per company EmptyToday at 9:13 am by Julian Whybra

» Colour of Lord Chelsmford eyes
Additional ammunition per company EmptyToday at 8:05 am by Simonsole

» Lance Corporal Robert Eaton NMP
Additional ammunition per company EmptyYesterday at 9:03 pm by ymob

» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 21, 2020 1:20 pm by Frank Allewell

» List of identified bodies at Isandlwana
Additional ammunition per company EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am by John Young

» Defenders of Rorkes Drift
Additional ammunition per company EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 6:47 pm by Digger

» Colour Sgt Anthony Clark Booth, VC.
Additional ammunition per company EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 6:47 pm by ADMIN

» Cpl John Lyons
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 7:49 pm by Bill8183

» A Case of Mistaken Identity?
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 11:29 am by John Young

» What happened next
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 am by Springbok

» Surgeon Espine Charles Ward
Additional ammunition per company EmptyWed Sep 09, 2020 9:38 am by John Young

» 2nd Lieutenant William Lancelot James, 2nd/4th Regiment.
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 2:41 pm by ADMIN

» Explaining Amabutho in one word??
Additional ammunition per company EmptyMon Sep 07, 2020 11:49 am by SRB1965

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Navy and Royal Marines
Additional ammunition per company EmptyThu Sep 03, 2020 4:05 pm by Frank Allewell

» Non-Combat Casualties - Royal Artillery
Additional ammunition per company EmptyWed Sep 02, 2020 8:01 pm by Catiline63

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:46 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant-Colonel David Campbell Williamson.
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:32 pm by ADMIN

» Brigade Surgeon E. J. Boulton
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 10:02 pm by ADMIN

» Joseph Walter O’Malley Martin. Assistant Surgeon
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:52 pm by ADMIN

» Quarter-Master William London
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:32 pm by ADMIN

» Surgeon Major Henry Lamb
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 pm by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 9:13 pm by ADMIN

» Sgt. John Philip Archbell NNC
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:43 pm by ADMIN

» Tpr. John Ross Natal Carbineer
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 8:27 pm by ADMIN

» Non-Combat Casualties in Colonial and Native Units
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 30, 2020 11:52 am by Julian Whybra

» Victorian HMS SHAH South Africa Zulu Wars Medal William Morrison Royal Navy
Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» South African 1879 Zulu War medal to Corp R Starkey 57th Regiment of Foot
Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 3:50 pm by 1879graves

» 2/4th Foot at Hlobane/Kambula
Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 4:12 am by 90th

» England's Sons 9th edition
Additional ammunition per company EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:20 pm by Herbie

» Strange tales from Isandlwana
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 23, 2020 4:25 pm by SRB1965

» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
Additional ammunition per company EmptySat Aug 22, 2020 5:48 pm by Visitor

» Militaria Sale
Additional ammunition per company EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:59 pm by Frank Allewell

» Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873
Additional ammunition per company EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 12:48 am by 90th

» Malicious website
Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Aug 16, 2020 9:06 pm by ADMIN

» Rorkes drift Hotel
Additional ammunition per company EmptyThu Aug 13, 2020 7:00 pm by robert taylor

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Black as Hell, Thick as Grass
Top posters
90th
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
littlehand
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
ADMIN
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
1879graves
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
rusteze
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
John
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
John Young
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
De Passey
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
90th
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
ADMIN
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
1879graves
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
SRB1965
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Kenny
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Simonsole
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Digger
Additional ammunition per company Bar_leftAdditional ammunition per company BarAdditional ammunition per company Bar_right 
Most active topics
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Woolfryes james martini 24th harford Isandlwana henry william Durnford payne melvill john spalding drift gardner Franklin Mounted taylor Russell horse Natal Prince smith Police George zulu

 

 Additional ammunition per company

Go down 
AuthorMessage
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptyThu Aug 03, 2017 8:42 pm

Ok, so this is with the power of hindsight and I assume that 70 rounds per man was deemed sufficient based on historical precedents.

But why did not each company have a small establishment to carry a couple of boxes of reserve ammunition, as standard.

This may have reduced the fire power by a handful of men but it would have made the company more resilient (and self sufficient) in the field.

Does anyone know if this was done post Isandlwana (or post Zulu War)?

Obviously in prepared positions/deployments – Khambula, Ulundi etc I assume additional ammunition supplies were made ready.

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze

Posts : 2881
Join date : 2010-06-02

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 04, 2017 11:07 am

There is very little in the Field Exercise Manual 1877 about ammunition re-supply. It says "Serving out ammunition from the regimental reserve must be carefully and frequently practised." That's it! There may be guidance elsewhere of course.

I just wonder whether two boxes per company would make a significant difference - on my calculation that's about 14 extra rounds per man?  Four men required to carry the boxes and distribute seems a high price to pay. Easier perhaps just to hand out 14 extra rounds in the first place?

Steve
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 04, 2017 3:59 pm

Hi,

I think 14 extra rounds is around 20% more 'shots' per man and I feel I would rather have potentially 1600  (or maybe 1200 - I can't remember if it was 80 x 10 or 60 x10 per box?) rounds per company, at the cost of handful of riflemen - that's assuming that it would be infantry doing the carrying rather than bandsmen etc.

I have read that 70 rounds was judged enough to carry without encumbering the soldier and that the bullets in the expense pouch tended to flirt out (if the soldier was running).

Its all academic anyway, I spose, if you think that ammo depletion only had a small part to play (if at all) with the collapse of the firing line, but readily available ammo would have made the withdrawal and 'stands' of the 24th at least more practical.

I spose the ammunition expenditure at other battles (apart from RD) was quite low

I'm just fascinated if there was an 'official' response to the ammo failure scenario, and if nothing was introduced, is this an indicator that it was considered (at the time) to be a red herring.

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
xhosa2000

xhosa2000

Posts : 1202
Join date : 2015-11-24

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 11, 2017 10:46 pm

The result of ammunition failure.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Ammunition failure   Additional ammunition per company EmptySat Aug 12, 2017 4:54 am

Hi SRB,
Indeed, you are right, more ammo available  in an uninterrupted supply at the firing would have changed the outcome of that ignominious battle significantly.
Now there were a number of reason for this serious  problem  not being identified . One was dealt with in  the "cover up" exposed quite copiously by l and Q in ZV, but another was the fragmented and really quite disfunctional and ineffective  ammunition supply 'system" on that day, a  factor related to the lack of  any proper battlefield command and control. Parochialism , would you believe it, also crept in, some units refusing to help the brothers in arms with ammo.
All factors which "his lordship" would have found to be most embarrassing, so this was all, expectedly, swept under the carpet .
The "ammunition failure" thread is dealt with extensively earlier on this forum gives a lot of interesting information on this subject.

regards

barry
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965

Posts : 848
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 55
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptySat Aug 12, 2017 7:23 am

barry wrote:
Indeed, you are right, more ammo available  in an uninterrupted supply at the firing would have changed the outcome of that ignominious battle significantly.

Hi Barry,

Thanks for the reply.

I am not truely convinced that the lack of ammunition would have had a significant effect on the overall out come of the battle, when taking into account with the rolling up of the right flank, the appearance of the Zulu right horn on the saddle, coupled with the fact that when the companies closed frontage (on the firing lines) they were 'isolated' and unable to fire in support of each other - I still think it would have been a 'Home Win' - there may have been more British survivors and less Zulu ones (which is very significant to the individual, I spose).

It is true that the Zulus repeatedly report that they could not get near to the 24th rallying squares until the ammo failed.

I personally do not believe the ammo failed (as such) until the companies were back in the tents/camp and that no supply infrastructure would have supplied the men with sufficient ammunition.

One book (Snook HCDB maybe?) argued that getting the ammo to the companies (in close action with the Zulus) was only part of the problem but distribution around the soldiers, would have been the crux.

Some (Knight, Snook, L&Q? can't remember who - I really must pay attention to the books I read) argued that the 24th where 'out shot' on the firing line (at close range) by the Zulus, given the amount of firearms they had and the fact that at closer ranges, the superior benefits of the MH were largely nullified (given the cover available - long grass etc)

You (or in fact I) could argue that ammunition supply to the NNMC/mounted volunteers is more important to the overall result.

One thing that I have always pondered is, when the 24th QMs turned away the NNMC troopers requesting ammo, how much carbine ammo would the QMs have? Overall in the camp there would have been thousands of rounds but possibly very few in the 24ths ammo wagons. I have read that the MH carbine could take the MH rifle bullet at a push (and a sore shoulder) but I am not even sure what carbines the mounted men carried - WR, SH, MH?

Part of my 'real life' is to investigate the 'root causes' of accidents in my work department (thankfully there are few and they are not very serious) but it is hard to do a Root Cause Analysis on something that happened two hours ago, when you can talk to the people involved.....

Thanks a lot.

Sime

ps I am not being 'argumentative' - just making conversation.....
Back to top Go down
Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptyFri Aug 25, 2017 5:44 pm

Sime

late on this but for my pennyworth

Martini Carbines were not available until March 1879 in the SA theatre, hence the adoption of the Swinburn Carbine, and I've listed the distribution of these before in previous posts. The common carbine was the Snider, not only to the irregulars, but also the Royal Artillery as their arm the Carbine Interchangeable Artillery (IC1) had not yet been officially issued until Aug 1879, its intended for-runner the Garrison Carbine had been withheld from issue and then all converted to IC1 A.C in March 1879.

So the most likely cause of ammunition not being distributed by QMs to irregulars is I have not got it, rather than you can't have it. Lt Davies comments about finding an open ammo box amongst the tens never stipulates what he actually found, or indeed where he found it from, In the Royal Artillery camp he'd find snider, so theres variables in his testimony. He obviously went away semi satisfied whatever he had.

In terms of expenditure, well no-one actually knows as nobody lived to tell the tale, but as Both Essex and Smith Dorrien both report of some degree of ammo distribution, then one can assume it was being dished out, and theres n reason to believe the officers would not carry out to the letter of the law the Field Exercise manual as Rusteze suggests. So even if the men did not have their haversacks, the minimum ammunition being carried would be 40-50 rounds, 2 x 20 in pouches and say ten in expense pouch (30 rounds simply do not fit in the pouch, theres not enough room) , even then (and there is no evidence to prove otherwise) compare to Khambula, where expenditure was average 33 round P.M then it is still not high. Lets assume they had the regulation 70 rounds, Wind forward to Maiwand the next year in three + hours some companies of the 66th fired 157 rounds per man average (Beresford Priese Company),and we know that with arguably equal or more enemy pressure. Then the duration of the battle even when severely pressed would dictate a 1.5 hours supply before replenishment with the 70 rounds they should have held.

Just facts here
Back to top Go down
http://www.martinihenry.org
Bromhead1879



Posts : 34
Join date : 2016-09-11

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company EmptySat Sep 02, 2017 9:36 pm

Didn't they usurp 20,000 rounds at Rourke's Drift in about 12 hours time? 4:20 p.m. till about 4 a.m.?
Back to top Go down
90th

90th

Posts : 10136
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Additional Ammunition per Co   Additional ammunition per company EmptySun Sep 03, 2017 2:46 am

Hi Bromhead
Yes that's about right , I have the figures here somewhere but have given up trying to find them ! , there was only about one box left from memory , a box holds 600 rds , I remember the rate of fire over the 12 or so hours was about 15 rounds per man , per
hour I think I read in Knight's
' Companion To The Anglo Zulu War '
90th
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Additional ammunition per company Empty
PostSubject: Re: Additional ammunition per company   Additional ammunition per company Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Additional ammunition per company
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: