WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» August Hammar Letter Dated 6th Jan 1879
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 22, 2024 8:34 pm by Stefaan

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 11:13 am by Julian Whybra

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:57 am by Julian Whybra

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Feb 21, 2024 10:47 am by Julian Whybra

» About the second invasion
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Feb 20, 2024 9:14 pm by 90th

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Watford band boys killed at iSandlwana
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 16, 2024 8:26 am by Julian Whybra

» Private J. McCrudden 1/13 Foot
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySun Feb 11, 2024 3:10 am by 90th

» Philip Price
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Feb 10, 2024 6:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 9:55 pm by ADMIN

» The anniversary of 22nd January in 2024
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 3:51 pm by luke1997

» What was the distance?
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 8:46 am by Stefaan

» Mrs Henry Hook
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Feb 06, 2024 3:14 pm by Kenny

» "With 6 good riflemen"
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyMon Feb 05, 2024 2:30 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» What was G company supposed to do?
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 9:31 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private 1445 Charles Meates 17th Lancers and his brother William Wylie
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 10:07 pm by John Young

» South Africa Medal With Clasp To Pvt J. Salter 3/60th
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 3:12 pm by Foody

» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 01, 2024 9:40 pm by Herbie

» Blue Plaque to James Egan, alias Private Hagan
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySun Jan 28, 2024 3:19 pm by Kenny

» Edward Plantagenet Kemeys-Tynte
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:06 pm by Edjg

» How many started?
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 23, 2024 10:10 am by Julian Whybra

» Firing Line formation
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyMon Jan 22, 2024 2:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Why did Maj. Spalding have to go ?
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Jan 17, 2024 9:40 pm by Stefaan

» Grape-shot at close range.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyMon Jan 15, 2024 7:42 am by SRB1965

» Books Hlobane & Kambula
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 09, 2024 10:08 am by John Young

» 24th Foot Database for Isandlwana
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySun Jan 07, 2024 11:03 am by SRB1965

» South African medal W.J.E. Bawtree, Natal Mounted Police
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2024 9:22 am by briannorris@sos.co.za

» Private 25B/293 J H Meredith 1/24th Regiment kia iSandlwana
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Jan 05, 2024 10:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» 94th Regiment receive AZW medal but not the Natal Mounted Police
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Jan 03, 2024 2:36 pm by MKalny15

» Command and Control
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyWed Jan 03, 2024 7:46 am by Schlaumeier

» Zulu use of firearms
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 02, 2024 3:40 pm by Stefaan

» A PROPOSED BOOK ABOUT ZULU DAWN
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 02, 2024 10:34 am by marlbrouk1

» New Members Welcome.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyTue Jan 02, 2024 6:51 am by Schlaumeier

» The Last of the few. Zulu cast. 2024
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyMon Jan 01, 2024 5:12 pm by ADMIN

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
February 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
   1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
26272829   
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
90th
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
SRB1965
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
Hobbes
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
Stefaan
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
John Young
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
dprice
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
luke1997
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
ADMIN
'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_left'Umsweantos' flag. Bar'Umsweantos' flag. Bar_right 
New topics
» Australians who went to Zululand and fought in the 1879 war.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 23, 2024 2:23 am by peterfarrell

» About the second invasion
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 9:53 pm by Hobbes

» Zulu Festival Brecon July 2024
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Feb 17, 2024 7:35 pm by John Young

» Letter of officer during Zulu wars.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 15, 2024 4:46 pm by Will M

» Bearing The Cross by Ken Blakeson | BBC RADIO DRAMA: Ken Blakeson's play tells the story of the Battle of Rorke's Drift and the effect it had on three of the soldiers who fought in it.
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 15, 2024 1:24 am by ADMIN

» Philip Price
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Feb 10, 2024 1:54 pm by dprice

» Death of Michael Jayson (Zulu Dawn)
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyThu Feb 08, 2024 12:05 pm by Kenny

» A few questions regarding Rorke's Drift and Isandlwana
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySun Feb 04, 2024 7:57 pm by Hobbes

» What was G company supposed to do?
'Umsweantos' flag. EmptyFri Feb 02, 2024 11:01 pm by Hobbes

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 'Umsweantos' flag.

Go down 
+2
ymob
SRB1965
6 posters
AuthorMessage
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1195
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 7:34 am

I've picked up the ball from the Iron Cross thread and moved (corrected it with help from JY & expanded it) it to here.

This is all theoretical and relies on the belief of the account.

There is an account of the battle of Isandlwana, recounted by Umsweanto/Muziwento (recorded by Swinney)

One line in particular grabbed my attention:-

"We were told also that there was a soldier at lsandlwana who carried a flag. He just waved it backwards and forwards. He fought not; he feared not (perhaps he put his trust in other soldiers)"

Given that the Queens Colours of 1/24th were cased with Melvill, the Regimental Colours elsewhere. So (if we believe the anecdote to be true) the only flags available were the Colours of the 2/24th (both of which were lost) and (maybe) one marking Lord C’s HQ.
As far as I know, no other Zulu account mentions flags and the only flag mentioned in British accounts is the one with Melvill.

Did Fripp get it right (albeit inadvertently) in his painting Isandlwana, where a Regimental colour is shown in a rallying square?

So who carried the colours?

If we also believe that the 2/24th Colours would have been carried by soldiers of the 2/24th (they could have been grabbed by anyone 1/24th or 2/24th from the Guard tent, I spose) - that leaves Popes G Coy (very very unlikely because they were out on piquet duty) or the 'composite' company of 'rear echelon' troops sent to support him?

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:26 am

Bonjour,
The 14th March 1879, first visit of Isandhlwana battlefield, the British searched the body of Lt Dyer, 2-24th. There was a Big rumour that an officer on horse (who was not Melvill) left the battlefield the 22 January with a flag.
As the corpse of Dyer pierced by an essaigai in the breast was found near Wardell's body...
Thé flags were never found contrary to bits of pole ( sorry, i don't know the exact words).
Through all the testimonies about the finds oc bits of pôle, it seems that some soldiers tried to protect the flags the 22 January.
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3226
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:32 am

Simon,

Anstey and Atkinson are believed to have rallied troops are around them in a series of final stands, what better way to rally men than under the Colours of their regiment, and in my opinion it would have been immaterial if those Colours were those of a different battalion, if regimental pride were at stake.

As an aside in 1939 when my late father was transferred from his Royal Artillery battery to the descendant regiment of the 24th he was told by a n.c.o. “They’re a good mob, but f**king unlucky with their Colours.”

JY

Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:35 am

Bonjour Mr Young,
Atkinson or Daly?
Cheers
Frēdéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3226
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:45 am

Fred,

Yes you can add Daly to list as well, but it is all supposition obviously.

Dyer - who you mentioned above - was apparently seen on horseback directing fire.

JY
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:54 am

Mr Young,
Agree about Daly.
There is a testimony about Daly's action the 22 th January ( but elsewhere on the battlefield).
I am intrigued by your mention of Atkinson because to my knowledge there is no testimony about his action the 22 January.
Contrary to Anstey, his corpse was never identified (as Daly)
Cheers
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1195
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 9:58 am

Hi John/Frederic.

I've read of Anstey's stand along the Fugitives Trail and some one proposed/theorized that he could have had a Colour (can't remember if it was IK or MS- its in one of books I have).

John - its amazing that 50 years after they last lost a Colour, its remembered (or recalled) and still used as an inter regimental 'dig'.....

Now this is probably all wrong but many years ago, I read of lowly TA battalion, returning from the trenches (in WWI) and there was some dispute about the right of way with a very clean smart Guards Battalion (probably Irish or Welsh), the upshot of which was the CO of the TA unit said to his Guards counterpart "Was you at Dettingen"?

The Guards in question were not raised at the time and the TA units ‘parent’ battalion had fought at the battle – apparently the last army to be personally commanded by the monarch.

Now this is most likely all incorrect because it was many, many years ago, that I read it - I have often tried to find reference on the internet, but with no luck.

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 10:09 am

About the rumour of the Officer with a flag: Apparently for those who knew him "a tall man on a chesnut horse" (from memory) looks like him.
Cheers
Frédéric
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3226
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 10:44 am

Fred,

Re-Atkinson see his entry in MacKinnon & Shadbolt.

Simon,

iSandlwana was actually the third occasion that the 24th had lost a Colour or both Colours.

3rd July 1810, to avoid their capture by the French in a naval engagement off of the island of Mayotte, the Colours were thrown overboard into the Indian Ocean.

13th January 1849, the Queen’s Colour was lost at the Battle of Chillianwallah, during the Sikh War.  Lieutenant-Colonel Smith recorded: ...the Queen’s colour was unhappily lost.  It’s staff had been broken in two, and one of the men is reported to have wrapped the colour round his body, but he was afterwards killed, and all endeavours to find any trace of it have hitherto been vain.  The Regimental colour was for a time on the ground, but was brought off uninjured...

22nd January 1879 - we already know about.

So as you see “F**king unlucky.”

JY
Back to top Go down
rusteze

rusteze


Posts : 2871
Join date : 2010-06-02

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 12:05 pm

If proof were needed!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Steve Reinstadtler
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10880
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 67
Location : Melbourne, Australia

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: umsweantos Flag    'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 12:07 pm

I knew it was real !! Joker Joker
90th Salute Salute
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1195
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Hi John,

I knew that the 24th had lost a Colour at Chillianwallah but I did not know they lost them (or threw them overboard, not technically lost I spose) in the Napoleonic Wars.

They do seem very careless with their Colours......

Cheers

Sime
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10880
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 67
Location : Melbourne, Australia

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: umsweantos Flag    'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 1:28 pm

Hi Sime
I'm with JY..... F##KING UNLUCKY ! Joker
90th Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 76
Location : Cape Town South Africa

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 1:30 pm

Just bloody careless.......tchhh.
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1195
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 1:44 pm

If I lost my car keys 3 times, you would say I was careless (or in fact carless at that point!) not unlucky......"he's a careless twit".....not "an unlucky twit"......

Cheers

Sime

ps don't drive, so got no keys to loose!

pps - However, England are just unlucky not careless......
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

'Umsweantos' flag. Empty
PostSubject: Re: 'Umsweantos' flag.   'Umsweantos' flag. EmptySat Jan 06, 2018 7:32 pm

Mr Young,
Thank You very much for the référence (Atkinson).
Bien cordialement
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
 
'Umsweantos' flag.
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Other regimental colours
» Weatherleys Border Horse Flag
» Waving the Welsh Flag at Isandlwana.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: