Latest topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra » Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman » Baron Von Steitencron![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra » Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th » Writing advice![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra » South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne » Bassage Diary![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Prior to Sihayo's Kraal ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th » British Fort Locations![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th » Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper » Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879 » Hamilton Browne's birthday![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra » Zulu "Corps"![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes » Army Pay Department Personnel![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra » Ntshingwayo birth date![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes » Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra » Smith's Store/Hotel![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra » Shaka iLembe![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84 » Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman » Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra » Fairlie's Native Police![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes |
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New topics | » The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Yesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000 » The lost diary of Pvt James Owen![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew » What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965 » Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra » The Wrecked Camp![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH » The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN |
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| | Skeleton & rope? | |
| | Author | Message |
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SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:56 am | |
| Hi,
The following assumes that the body with the rope around his neck, was a fact.
I am currently in conversation on another forum about the skeleton found with a rope around its neck at Isandlwana.
I believe the discovery was made in June 1879 by Majors Black's party and was published in Mainwarrings account of events (in 1895) - but I may be wrong....
This fellow has always been associated with the 'cave' soldier - though I find this spurious, myself and I am not too concerned with the cave bit of the scenario.
The basic debate is - did some British get captured alive at Isandlwana, obviously some answers may be in Julian's 'Essays 5', so replies on this forum may be 'redacted'. I personally believe it was very possible
I struggle to think of a concrete reason why the Zulus would put a rope around the neck of a dead British soldier - other than to drag him out of the cave (but this still seems a little bit of effort to go and find a rope etc, when he could probably have been dragged out by an arm or whatever). However, I am not familiar with the terrain around (or access to) 'the cave' - nor in fact which cave it was (if the cave incident actually happened).
However there seems only one reason why a rope was put round the neck of a live soldier.
Cheers
Simon |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Drummer Boy 14
![Drummer Boy 14](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/580-5.jpg)
Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:34 am | |
| I never understood why the solider with nope round his neck was linked to the cave solider, he was shot by Zulus. Why would they drag his body out to put rope round it, or why would they carry rope up to the cave.
Makes sense it was around a live soldier.
Cheers Sam |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:40 am | |
| Hi DB,
I think the theory was that after he was shot, they couldn't get him from his cave (the current favoured one is one you have to lie down it at the back - I believe), so to get him out, to try and rob any ammo (or whatever) or perform their rituals, they got a rope from somewhere (maybe the camp) and tied it round him to drag him out........
Not sure myself......
Ta
Sime |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:16 am | |
| SRB Correction: "Julian and Frederic's essay 5" |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:42 am | |
| - Julian Whybra wrote:
- SRB
Correction: "Julian and Frederic's essay 5" Of course, sorry Frederic...... |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:29 pm | |
| SRB Of course, that's fine! I was just making a point really. Fred's contribution to the essay in vol. IV was massive - in thinking, research, and in content - it is important to me that he should receive an equal share in the credit for it. The same is true in the vol. V essay...as you will see! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 4:30 pm | |
| Patrone morientium membris mutiletur
|
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:26 pm | |
| - xhosa2000 wrote:
Patrone morientium membris mutiletur Thanks to Google - "Dying mutilation"...... So therefore 'alive' when the rope was attached? But how alive? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:40 pm | |
| Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort. To my mind, the traditional explanation that the Zulu needed to perform cleansing rituals on those they had killed is surely sufficient reason for them to have extracted the body from a difficult location using a rope.
Steve Reinstadtler |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4021 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:24 pm | |
| Or possibly NOT a rope but a halter...which ended up not being required... |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:02 pm | |
| Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort, errr what!. not so Steve.. sorry Sime.. not part of your original question.. but as Julian ref studies 4/5 i thought i would issue a teaser as part of my reply addressing the mutilation question (s).. till i get a grip of 5 i will keep my powder dry so to speak. i don't throw away latin phrases lightly. as said the context will be provided at a later date. to form part of the bigger picture. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:03 pm | |
| - rusteze wrote:
- Agonising over a latin phrase that neither party used at the time is a bit of a waste of effort. To my mind, the traditional explanation that the Zulu needed to perform cleansing rituals on those they had killed is surely sufficient reason for them to have extracted the body from a difficult location using a rope.
Steve Reinstadtler Hi Steve/Julian I'm not really agonising over much at all at the moment....apart from our family car being wrote-off yesterday but Les posted a phrase, I dunno where he got it from, Google told me what it meant..... However back to your point, if all bodies were mutilated, yes I wouldn't agree more....but I believe some bodies were not mutilated, so I am not convinced the idea of mutilation was universally observed...... Julian: Sorry but I do not want to be thick but I'm not quite sure what the difference is between a rope & a halter......especially when it around a (potentially) live persons neck.....what other purpose could it have.... Maybe one day Frank or 90th can carry out an experiment and lie lifeless in 'the cave' whilst someone tries to pull them out......(of course without the use of a ropey halter - that may be going too far) Cheers Sime |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:36 pm | |
| Sorry to hear about the car Sime. I suppose that if it had been a halter rope it might indicate that the individual was attempting to catch a horse and so aid escape? Another thought - a pistol lanyard minus pistol?
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:46 pm | |
| Thanks Steve, fortunately my wife was unharmed (shook up and upset but unharmed) - which is the important thing......I told the kids that "we can get a new car but new mummy's are harder to come by" - they are still whinging about having to walk to school...that's kids I spose....
I have often thought about it being an lanyard but I would assume that the finders would have recognised it for what it was and mentioned him being an officer.....
cheers anyway, Steve
Sime |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:57 pm | |
| Apparently Mainwaring asked a doctor whether the skeleton was a white or black man - he said white. But that rather implies that there was no proof it was a soldier - what equipment might a voorloper or mulateer have had?
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:09 am | |
| what equipment might a voorloper or mulateer have had? remark's Steve.. Voorloper.. A whip, length's of rope.. ( knee haltering ) a big stick.. can't think of any - thing else |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | ADMIN
![ADMIN](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/1-44.jpg)
Posts : 4354 Join date : 2008-11-01 Age : 65 Location : KENT
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:07 am | |
| - SRB1965 wrote:
- Hi,
The following assumes that the body with the rope around his neck, was a fact.
I am currently in conversation on another forum about the skeleton found with a rope around its neck at Isandlwana.
I believe the discovery was made in June 1879 by Majors Black's party and was published in Mainwarrings account of events (in 1895) - but I may be wrong....
This fellow has always been associated with the 'cave' soldier - though I find this spurious, myself and I am not too concerned with the cave bit of the scenario.
The basic debate is - did some British get captured alive at Isandlwana, obviously some answers may be in Julian's 'Essays 5', so replies on this forum may be 'redacted'. I personally believe it was very possible
I struggle to think of a concrete reason why the Zulus would put a rope around the neck of a dead British soldier - other than to drag him out of the cave (but this still seems a little bit of effort to go and find a rope etc, when he could probably have been dragged out by an arm or whatever). However, I am not familiar with the terrain around (or access to) 'the cave' - nor in fact which cave it was (if the cave incident actually happened).
However there seems only one reason why a rope was put round the neck of a live soldier.
Cheers
Simon There is an account somewhere on the forum, where bodies of British soldiers were found at Isandlwana with their hands bound behind their backs. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1225 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Skeleton & rope? Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Skeleton & rope? Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:03 am | |
| Thanks, I will have to try to track it down
Cheers
Sime |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | Skeleton & rope? | |
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