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 Lt. Francis Pender Porteous

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Kenny
richardporteous
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richardporteous




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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptySat Apr 07, 2018 4:38 pm

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Having read 10 separate books which mention the battle of Isandlwhana, I still can't come to a definitive decision as to which company of the 24th Regiment my direct descendent, Lt Francis Pender Porteous, was commanding when it was overrun by the Zulu impi. Would he have automatically been given the Zulu War Medal and is there some form of register which states to whom this and any other personal effects were subsequently given?
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Kenny




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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptySat Apr 07, 2018 6:14 pm

Perhaps you should look on-line:

https://www.porteous.org.uk/

He was awarded the South Africa Medal with clasp 1877-8-9 and commanded A Company 1/24th.
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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyMon Apr 09, 2018 3:44 pm

Thanks Kenny, some of what's on www.porteous.org.uk/ has been written by me, including that he commanded A Company 1/12th. Unfortunately since writing that, as I mentioned in my original post, I've read several different accounts suggesting he was leading a different company. Any ideas about how to trace to whom his personal effects may have been sent?
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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyMon Apr 09, 2018 4:56 pm

This is my list of the location of 24th officers on 22 January 1879.  Hope it makes sense.

Battalion Sub-unit Officers Location
Staff Glyn (No. 3 Column Comd), *Coghill Chelmsford’s Column, *Isandhlwana
1st Battalion 24th Foot HQ Pulleine (CO), Degacher W, Melvill (Adjt), White (Pmr), Pullen (QM), Sergt-Major Gapp Isandhlwana
A Porteous Isandhlwana
B Harrisson, Spring, Roche Fort Harrisson, Southern Natal/Pondoland border
C Younghusband, Hodson Isandhlwana
D Upcher, Heaton, Lloyd Moved independently from PMB to Helpmekaar
E Cavaye, Dyson Isandhlwana
F Mostyn, Anstey, Daly Moved independently from PMB arriving Isandhlwana 21 January
G Rainforth, Clements, Palmes Moved independently from PMB to Helpmekaar
H Wardell, Atkinson Isandhlwana
Band Isandhlwana
2nd Battalion 24th Foot HQ Degacher HJ (CO), Dunbar, Black, Trower, Phipps, Weallens, Sergt-Major Hogan Chelmsford’s Column
A Tongue Chelmsford’s Column
B Bromhead Rorke’s Drift
C Williams Chelmsford’s Column
D Penn Symons, Franklyn Chelmsford’s Column
E Logan Chelmsford’s Column
F Church, Mainwaring, Dobree Chelmsford’s Column
G+ Pope, Godwin-Austen F, Dyer (Adjt), Griffiths (Transport)* Bloomfield (QM) Isandhlwana
*Initially with Chelmsford
H Harvey, Banister, Curll Chelmsford’s Column
Band *Bandmaster Bullard Chelmsford’s Column, *Isandhlwana
Mounted Infantry 1 Sqn Browne In the vicinity of Chelmsford’s Column
2 Sqn Sugden Attached No. 1 Column (Possibly at Fort Pearson)


There is a ledger (NOT available on-line) in the National Archives at Kew - I think reference WO34/54 which gives deaths of 24th Officers and Men - some entries in the ledger do give a disposal reference for the effects - sometimes name.  However there is no further document at Kew which expands the disposal reference into name and address.
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richardporteous




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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyFri May 18, 2018 8:37 pm

Sorry for the lateness in getting back to you Kenny. Thanks for the location list of officers and the info regarding the possible disposal of effects.
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John Young

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptySun May 20, 2018 12:51 am

Richard,

Some further details of Francis’ career.

Details of his attendance at the School of Musketry, Hythe, Kent in August 1870.  Left Wing, 6th Section:
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John Young Collection.

JY
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24th foot

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyMon May 21, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi Richard

Changing the subject a bit. Are you(both) related to Pat Porteous VC at Dieppe,  by any chance?

Cheers
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richardporteous




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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:25 pm

Hi John, thanks for the information on the School of Musketry which I'd not seen before.
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richardporteous




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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyWed May 23, 2018 1:29 pm

Hi 24th Foot, no I'm not closely linked to Pat Porteous. I met him on a number of occasions at 'Porteous Family Gatherings' which are held every 5 years and which are attended from folk all over the world. I found him a very gentle, unassuming man.
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24th foot

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyWed May 23, 2018 11:44 pm

Hi Richard
Thank you. Still, very nice to meet and chat to an interesting person.
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John Young

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyWed Dec 16, 2020 3:37 pm

The Best Shooting Section.  School of Musketry - Hythe
- Sept. 1870. -

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(John Young Collection.)

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Lt. F. P. Porteous, 1st/24th Regiment.

JY
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richardporteous




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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyThu Dec 17, 2020 12:37 pm

Hi John, I am so excited to see the photos of Lt. F.P. Porteous taken when attending the musketry course at Hythe. It's the best frontal photo I've seen of him. I have an actual profile photo of him so this is a welcome addition to my understanding of what my cousin, twice removed, actually looked like. Can you explain for me the contents and significance of the other image you included of the names of those in his group on the course.
Once again, thank you so much, it's a litle bit like Christmas coming early!
Best wishes,, Richard
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John Young

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyThu Dec 17, 2020 12:53 pm

Hello Richard,

The centred text above the photograph is what appears at the top of the album page.

So it appears the 6th Section of the Course which ran from August to September 1870 were the best in the course.

The handwritten text identifies the individuals in the section, hence the reason for its inclusion.  Must say it has proved interesting to follow the careers of the others in the group.

Best wishes,

JY
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Porteous's sword recovered   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyMon Mar 06, 2023 5:01 pm

From "Campaigning in South Africa and Egypt" by W.C.F.Molyneux p101
Aftermath of the battle of Gingindhlovu

"Upwards of four hundred guns and rifles were picked up, some of the Martini's with the stamp of the 24th Regiment upon them; and in the dead Zulus pouches and bags was found stationary captured at Isandhlwana,which they had been using as wadding for their smoothbores, ration returns, letters, English newspapers, and all sorts of odds and ends.
From off one Zulu an English Officers sword was taken and brought to the chief. Crealock's clerk who had been an assistant in the orderly-room of the battalion  annihilated at Isandhlwana at once recognised it as having belonged to Lieutenant Porteous of the 24th; it ws accordingly preserved and sent to his friends."
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Julian Whybra




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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptyWed Mar 08, 2023 10:00 am

Richard
The A / E coy confusion began with Donald Morris's book The Washing of the Spears in which he misread the indefinite article 'A' for the letter 'A' in a survivor's statement which began with "A company was lying..." The error was then replicated subsequently in other histories.
David Jackson's Hill of the Sphinx corrected the error and his remains the standard history of the battle (though it is difficult to obtain these days).
A survivor of the battle from the 1/24th, Pte. Williams, specifically states that No. 1 coy (A) was sent out to support the artillery. It took up a position to the left and in line with them. His statement is in the National Archives and a copy is at Brecon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptySun Mar 19, 2023 3:44 pm

Thank you Julian, that clearly explains how the mistake started and has since been replicated, and all because of an indefinite article! Thank you also gardner1879, I'd not come across the Molyneux reference before.
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John Young

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Lt. Francis Pender Porteous Empty
PostSubject: Re: Lt. Francis Pender Porteous   Lt. Francis Pender Porteous EmptySun Mar 19, 2023 5:14 pm

There is the obvious profile photograph of F. P. Porteous.

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Lt. F. P. Porteous, 1st/24th Regiment.
(John Young Collection)

JY
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