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Zulu: Lieutenant John Chard:What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead:Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you
 
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 Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)

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Catiline63

Catiline63

Posts : 10
Join date : 2019-08-24
Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex

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PostSubject: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySat Sep 07, 2019 10:32 pm

The Narrative of Field Operations says that between 11 January and 15 October, 17 officers and 330 men died of disease while campaigning in Zululand. As far as I can tell these deaths, and deaths through other non-combat means (accidents, suicide, etc), have never been collated. This gap in our knowledge has frustrated me for some time, so a few months ago I decided to undertake some research myself. The result is that I've managed to track down the details of about 350 such deaths (the official count seems to be an under-estimate), with several dozen 'possibles' that might in time be added to the list. This takes me to my question: having scoured books such as Holme's 'Noble 24th', and Hope's book on the 80th, the London Gazette, the PRO's WO100 series (medal rolls), and even regimental memorials, are there any other published sources that I can refer to? Or have I now reached a point where I have to start looking at unpublished stuff the PRO might hold in the archives?  
Any input would be most welcome!

Lee
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2066
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySat Sep 07, 2019 10:58 pm

Lee,

The Parliamentary “Blue Books” of the period contains information regarding such deaths.  MacKinnon & Shadbolt’s The South African Campaign of 1879 contains details of officers’ deaths.  Further information can also be found in period newspapers.

The Casualty Return for the period held at The National Archives also includes non-combat deaths.  I’ll see if I can find the appropriate reference for you in the morning.

JY


Last edited by John Young on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Catiline63

Catiline63

Posts : 10
Join date : 2019-08-24
Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySat Sep 07, 2019 11:13 pm

Many thanks, John. That sounds like a great help.

I consulted M&S also (as well as the supplement to it). On the topic of officers, my list contains 28 who died non-combat deaths between 11/1/79 and 15/10/79 (20 imperial, 8 colonial), where the official Narrative count is 17!

Lee
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2066
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySun Sep 08, 2019 10:44 am

Lee,

The file to check at The National Archives is WO 25/3474, it is the combined casualty return for the Zulu War, the Afghan War and the 1st Boer War.

The Medical History of the War in Zululand in 1879 by Surgeon-General John Andrew Woolfryes, might also be of assistance to you with more accurate figures. You should be able to view or request a copy of it from The Museum of Military Medicine, Keogh Barracks, Ash Vale, Aldershot.

JY
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Catiline63

Catiline63

Posts : 10
Join date : 2019-08-24
Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySun Sep 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Thanks a lot, John. That is invaluable assistance.

Lee

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Kenny



Posts : 395
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySun Sep 08, 2019 7:28 pm

Lee,

There is also WO25/3368 at TNA at Kew which covers 24th Foot deaths. I suspect there are other ledgers in WO25 series which cover the other regiments who were engaged in the AZW. This is a tricky subject in days before computer recording systems, incorrect names, locations, and regimental numbers. You have walk the ground in the Eastern Cape and Natal to see the names recorded on the memorials (some of these have been replaced in recent times containing further inaccuracies). You also have to go through the Pay & Muster rolls. At Rorke's Drift, the names on the 24th memorial, particularly those listed as died of disease, are not buried there but in a small cemetery across the otherside of the Buffalo river (no headstones though). I do have a list of casualties for 24th Foot for Frontier war and Zulu campaign. However there are about 6 queries I am unable to resolve. Finally, ledger WO25/3474 suggested by John is not very reliable.
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2066
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 64
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySun Sep 08, 2019 7:34 pm

Kenny,

I’ve got to say it was a very good cross-reference if used in conjunction with the WO 16 material, but that was nearly thirty years when I was working on They Fell Like Stones...

JY
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Catiline63

Catiline63

Posts : 10
Join date : 2019-08-24
Location : Burgess Hill, West Sussex

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptySun Sep 08, 2019 8:23 pm

Kenny,

For the 24th I've leaned primarily on Holme's research, and I've got 28 non-combat deaths for the 2/24th for 1879 (Bennett, Boyle, Brookes, Bryan, Clayton, Cope, Cronin, Cuthbert, Delaney, Dorrell, Evans, Farr, Foster, Franklin, Frowen, Haslam, James, A. Jones, D. Jones, T. Jones, Lemmond, Lyons, Sullivan, Taylor, Whittaker, Williams, and Davenport and Ricks both attached IMI).
For the 1/24th I have 11 definite non-combat deaths, with a further 8 'possibles'.

If you think I might have some material which could be helpful to you, I'm more than happy to share.

All the best,
Lee
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Kenny



Posts : 395
Join date : 2013-05-07
Location : Brecon

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptyMon Sep 09, 2019 2:50 pm

Lee
If you send me a private message (see memberlist), I can forward to you my notes by email

Kenny
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 3913
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 61
Location : KENT

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PostSubject: Re: Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)    Non-combat deaths (disease, accidents, suicide, etc.)  EmptyMon Sep 09, 2019 9:29 pm

Some useful information.

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