WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyYesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000

» The lost diary of Pvt James Owen
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew

» Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 24, 2024 6:16 pm by John Young

» What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyMon Jul 22, 2024 6:53 am by John Young

» Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySat Jul 20, 2024 12:17 pm by SRB1965

» Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 18, 2024 11:11 am by Julian Whybra

» The Wrecked Camp
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 17, 2024 4:33 pm by Julian Whybra

» Private N/N John Robert Branch 90th Regiment and his discovered diary
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyMon Jul 15, 2024 8:53 pm by 1879graves

» Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 12:06 pm by 1879graves

» 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 10:57 am by johnman

» Baron Von Steitencron
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 10, 2024 3:10 pm by Julian Whybra

» Sgt Joseph Windridge, Defender of Rorke's Drift - Memorial
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyTue Jul 09, 2024 3:15 am by 90th

» Writing advice
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 4:04 pm by Julian Whybra

» South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1877-8-9 (4389 Fr. Sergt. S. Smith. O/2. Bde. R.A.)
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 07, 2024 9:30 am by rai

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

» Any nominal role of G Coy 2/24th regiment
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 11:18 am by Wayne

» Bassage Diary
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Prior to Sihayo's Kraal
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 9:19 am by 90th

» British Fort Locations
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 3:40 am by 90th

» Sergeant 1064 Tom Hick / Hicks G Company 2/24th Regiment
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 03, 2024 11:05 am by Julian Whybra

» A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyFri Jun 28, 2024 2:31 pm by Mr M. Cooper

» Private 25B/279 Henry Sears Bugler E Company 24th Reg. KIA Isandlwana
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jun 27, 2024 1:07 pm by gardner1879

» Hamilton Browne's birthday
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyFri Jun 21, 2024 9:22 am by Julian Whybra

» Zulu "Corps"
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 6:01 pm by Hobbes

» Army Pay Department Personnel
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am by Julian Whybra

» Ntshingwayo birth date
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jun 16, 2024 11:37 am by Hobbes

» Zibhebhu and Cetshwayo's family
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 9:11 pm by Julian Whybra

» Smith's Store/Hotel
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jun 05, 2024 6:06 pm by Julian Whybra

» Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyTue Jun 04, 2024 5:20 pm by Julian Whybra

» Shaka iLembe
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySat Jun 01, 2024 1:27 pm by Jon84

» Bugler 1415 Thomas Finn / Flin 90th Regiment
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySat May 25, 2024 11:28 am by johnman

» Inspector-General Evelyn Richard Hugh Pollard
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyTue May 14, 2024 10:13 am by ADMIN

» Alfred Fairlie Henderson photographs.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySat May 11, 2024 8:01 am by Julian Whybra

» Fairlie's Native Police
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu May 02, 2024 9:12 pm by Hobbes

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
July 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
1234567
891011121314
15161718192021
22232425262728
293031    
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
The missing five hours.
The ammunition question
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
Branchjr
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
1879graves
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
90th
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
SRB1965
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
John Young
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
paulhellier
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
Hobbes
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
johnman
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
ADMIN
Hickley & Pioneers Bar_leftHickley & Pioneers BarHickley & Pioneers Bar_right 
New topics
» The Pictorial World - March 15th 1879
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyYesterday at 1:13 pm by ben2000

» The lost diary of Pvt James Owen
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 25, 2024 12:03 pm by miklew

» Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 24, 2024 5:53 pm by miklew

» What was the uniform of field marshals/generals in the zulu war?
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pm by darthvaix

» Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyFri Jul 19, 2024 1:29 pm by SRB1965

» Capt. D. Hayes 1/3rd Regt., NNC
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Jul 17, 2024 10:52 pm by Julian Whybra

» The Wrecked Camp
Hickley & Pioneers EmptySun Jul 14, 2024 8:51 am by 61MECH

» The trashing of the Zulu monument to the brave warriors at Isandlawana March 12, 2024 has been blamed on scrap metal scavengers.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:41 pm by ADMIN

» The Goodwill Zulu Festival: Celebrating the Welsh and KwaZulu Natal Shared Heritage.
Hickley & Pioneers EmptyThu Jul 04, 2024 7:27 pm by ADMIN

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Hickley & Pioneers

Go down 
4 posters
AuthorMessage
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1225
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyMon Dec 16, 2019 9:33 am

Hi

On a wargaming website (which is obviously as accurate as Wiki.....) someone has posted this about the Natal Native Pioneers

A company under Captain Nolan was assigned to Colonel Glynn's No. Three column. The majority of the 80 strong company marched out of camp with Chelmsford's force and only Lieutenant Hickley with 10 natives stayed behind. They all survived the disaster as they were out of camp (probably busy improving the roads) at the time of the Zulu attack.

Has anyone got any more info about these, for example - where Hickley and his men were?

Thanks

Sime
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3379
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyMon Dec 16, 2019 12:42 pm

Hi Sime

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Salute
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
Herbie




Posts : 118
Join date : 2017-11-16
Age : 58
Location : Epsom, Surrey

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyMon Dec 16, 2019 8:34 pm

I’d understood from seeing his name on at least 2 survivors lists that the NNP officer at Isandlwana was Lt GF Andrews. Is that correct? A Lt Andrews is also mentioned by Capt WH Stafford as being placed in command of a picket of NNC the night before the battle. Not having found any Lt Andrews in the NNC I’d assumed this was the same man? Both Lt GF Andrews and H Hickey are on the NNP medal Roll.

PS My namesake Lt Herbert Hancock is also on the roll for the NNP. According to Dutton he served in No.3 Coy with Pearson.

Phil
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1225
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Dec 18, 2019 8:14 am

Is there any specific info flying around about the location of the NNP at Isandlwana - I would think they were between RD and the camp somewhere shovelling away.

Did Hickley leave any kind of account?

Thanks

Simon
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Dec 18, 2019 10:50 am

Andrews was at iSandlwana, quite significantly really. Busy working on it. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Hickley & Pioneers Empty
PostSubject: Re: Hickley & Pioneers   Hickley & Pioneers EmptyWed Dec 18, 2019 5:45 pm

This is an essay I put together a few months ago, there have been further elements added over this period but as the subject has been raised, I thought it apt to post the following purely for discussion purposes rather than a solid theory.

Discussion Document

In researching the Rocket Battery personnel, I came across a reference to Lieutenant G F Andrews being present in charge of a section of men, approx. 20 strong, belonging to E Company.
Captain Stafford
“Lieut. Russell with his Rocket Battery, and who lost his life that day, was ordered to the extreme right, supported by a few mounted infantry and twenty of my men under Lieutenant Andrews.”
This statement has generally been dismissed as the poor recall of an 80-year-old and the man in question here was confused with Wally Erskine, he had in one statement mentioned Erskine in this context so that possibility does exist. However, there is the possibility that Stafford sent out two separate groups, Erskine and Andrews.
It has also been argued that Lieutenant Andrews was a member of the Natal Native Pioneers under Captain W J Nolan and left the camp that morning with Chelmsford, one commentator places him left behind in camp with a squad of ten men to assist in moving the tents. This would seem strange as the decision to move camp was only made much later in the day.

In his masterful work, ‘Hill of the Sphinx’ the late David Jackson places Andrews back in the camp having returned with Alan Gardner with orders to assist in packing up the camp.
This conclusion has been drawn from an interview with a Mr. Alexander by Colonel Bray and assuming that Alexander is incorrect and the interview was actually with Lieutenant Anderson.

Following from that misidentification support is given to the concept that Stafford was wrong in his identification of Andrews.

However, Stafford does mention Andrews in one other context.

Stafford on the night of the 21st at Rorkes Drift
‘I was ordered to place a picket and after having done so was summoned to the Colonels tent. Colonel Durnford and Shepstone and ‘Tom’ the Colonels cook were present. I was surprised to see Wally Erskine who was on picket duty in the tent also.’
‘Colonel Durnford informed me that the native picket in Erskine’s charge had refused to remain at their post. Although this was disagreeable it was not altogether a surprise to one who had been brought up amongst the Natal Natives.’
Later
‘The terror of the Zulu Impis held them spell bound and to their minds the Zulu army was invincible. After placing Lieutenant Andrews in charge of a fresh picket the rest of the evening was spent over a game of cards.’

This puts Andrews with the Durnford column No 2 rather than with Chelmsford and combined with the first quote raises the possibility that he could very well have been with the Rocket Battery. It also mentions Erskine and Andrews in the same location, critically to dispel thoughts that he, Stafford was again confused.

The question then arises why would Colonel Bray confuse Lieutenant Andrews a member of the Colonial force with a ‘Mr. Alexander’? And why would David Jackson suggest that possibility.

Possibly the answer would be to offer an explanation why Andrews was in the camp for the battle?




From the Colonial Engineer Pietermaritzburg 19th June 1884
“ Certificate regarding the services of Lieutenant GF Andrews Late of the Natal Native Pioneers organized by Capt. Himes R.E. Colonial Engineer, served in No1 Company (Under the command of Captain W.J.Nolan) of the above Corps from 3rd Dec 1878 until 6th Oct 1879- This company was with Lord Chelmsford’s column in Zululand.”

The company was out with Chelmsford but was Andrews with them, or was he detached?


From the Royal Engineers Museum: Corps History Part 7

Officers of the Royal Engineers 1879: Who's Who
Two field companies of the Engineers (the 2nd and the 5th) embarked for South Africa on December 2nd, 1878, and landed at Durban on January 4th, 1879, for the reinforcement of the Corps in South Africa. This had previously only consisted of the 7th Company, commanded by Major F W Nixon, who had under him Lieutenants, F H MacDowel and J Clarke.
Colonel A W Durnford, assisted by Captain A H Hime, who was at the time Colonial Engineer, had organised and equipped three Companies of Native Pioneers. These each consisted of a Captain and 2 Subalterns (European), and 4 Sergeants and 96 Sappers (African). In each company 25 men were armed with the Martini-Henry rifle, the remainder bearing assegais and shields. Each man also carried a tool slung. The equipment of tools, forges, dynamite, etc, was loaded in two-wheeled ox-carts. The officers were employed in the Colonial Engineers department.
When the expeditionary force was organised, Colonel Durnford took command of the entire Natal Native Contingent, consisting of three battalions of 1,000 men each, with 450 mounted men and a rocket battery under Captain Russell RA. From long residence in the area and from having command of similar contingents during previous outbreaks, Colonel Durnford had acquired great influence over the indigenous peoples of Natal and Basutoland, and it was felt that no-one else was so well qualified to lead this auxiliary force.
Colonel F N Hassard was Commanding Royal Engineer, and Lieutenant J C Baxter was Adjutant. The other officers and companies were divided amongst the three columns which were intended to penetrate into the district from different points.
Colonel E Wood commanded that which was to start from Utrecht; with him was Major C J Moysey.
Colonel Glyn's column was to start from Helpmakaar and Rorke's Drift; with him was the 5th Field Company Royal Engineers, with Captain W P Jones, Lieutenants J R M Chard, R Da C Porter, and C E Commeline, also two Companies of Native Pioneers commanded by Lieutenant F H MacDowel.

Significantly no mention of Lieutenant Andrews.

However there was a ‘Mr Alexander’ with the NNC.

Order No 224, dated 14th December 1878. Times of Natal 18th December 1878.
9. The following appointments in the Natal Native Contingent will take effect viz.
Lieut.C.A.Bettington, 2nd Battalion 1st Regiment, to be Adjutant, to bear date from date he assumed duty.
Mr AC Alexander, to be Paymaster and Quartermaster, 3rd Battalion 1st Regiment , from this date.

Confirmed Order 229, dated 19th December 1878, Times of Natal 23rd December 1878.

Could Colonel Bray be some how confusing this Alexander with Andrews, it’s a possibility but unlikely, Mr Alexander died a few days before the battle.


Correspondence Bray/Bartle Frere Sandspruit January 23rd 1879.

Mr Alexander was with the General, and was sent back by his Captain to assist in moving camp. It was being struck when the fight began, he assisted in firing at the enemy as they poured round hills A and B in sketch plan, and drove our troops pell mell before they all mixed up.

“I then rode for the river. When I left the plain was black with Zulus: they were advancing through the camp. The Zulu loss must have been very heavy. Three horsemen swam over with me, and a mixed lot of soldiers and natives were trying to get over.”
Lieutenant Alexander was later listed as arriving at Helpmakaar as a fugitive.

There is, it seems, to be a reasonable call for doubt in Mr Jacksons theory and if that is the case there would also be a reasonable call for the inclusion of Lieutenant Andrews in the Rocket Battery support. I know I’m going to take some flack for that statement but it does exist as a possibility.
E B Skottowe has never appeared on any list of personnel in the NNC and yet there is incontrovertible proof that he was there. Gunner Taylor likewise.
Skottowe was in D Company under Captain Nourse along with Lieutenant Lister. Skottowe also says that elements of E Company were also present and states there was a Captain and two lieutenants from E Company , One of those is identified as Lieutenant N D Black leaving one unidentified. But again according to Skottowe he survived along with himself and Lister as Lieutenants, the possibility is then that Andrews must be considered as that missing fourth officer. Skottowe likewise doesn’t mention the Captain by name but if there was a second Captain present the name of DM Smyth must be considered.
Captain DM Smyth was appointed on the 27th November, Order No 208 to the 1st Battalion 1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent. He was at iSandlwana and was reported to have escaped from the battle, Times of Natal 15th August. He is also mentioned as being one of three NNC Captains to arrive at Helpmakaar that evening, the others being Stafford and Nourse. (See posts Sat April 6th 2013)

Just a thought for discussion.
Back to top Go down
 
Hickley & Pioneers
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Military Movements Captain Himes' Pioneers
» 24th Regiment Pioneers
» Captain Arthur Frederick Parrington Natal Native Pioneers

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: