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Film Zulu Dawn:General Lord Chelmsford: For a savage, as for a child, chastisement is sometimes a kindness. Sir Henry Bartle Frere: Let us hope, General, that this will be the final solution to the Zulu problem.
 
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sc-em

sc-em


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PostSubject: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptySat Feb 08, 2020 9:16 am

I am sure most of you have seen this, but I came across it on You Tube. It certainly has some interesting viewpoints, if not some very contentious ones. I am not sure that their take on the awarding of VCs or the non awarding in some case, would have been well received, or the notions of Bromhead and Chard being less than competent.
As for the smooth Chelmsford and his promotion to full General following his return to England, he must have been some serious orator, even if Disraeli wasn't fooled.
I suppose it all makes for interesting viewing and gives another slant to these fascinating events.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptySat Feb 08, 2020 7:13 pm

sc-em,

Are you referring to the Timewatch programme?

I was on the credits on that one, but had no input beyond the content of some of the graphics.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptySat Feb 08, 2020 7:52 pm

Yes. That's the one. To have been involved at all is quite something, and clearly wet your appetite for the subject if you are on this forum.

I tried my wife on your Greek signature but it must be ancient.
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptySat Feb 08, 2020 9:17 pm

sc-em,

No my interest in the subject goes back much further than that.

As to the text it is the elegy to the Spartan fallen at Thermopylae, the translation is Oh stranger, tell the Lacedaemonians that we lie here, obedient to their words.

The memorial to the Natal Carbineers at iSandlwana echoes the sentiment but transposes England for Sparta.

Not Theirs To Save The Day 
But Where They Stood, 
Falling To Dye The Earth 
With Brave Men's Blood For England's Sake And Duty 
-  Be Their Name Sacred Among Us - 
Neither Praise Nor Blame Add To Their Epitaph 
- But Let It Be Simple As That Which Marked Thermopylae. 
Tell It In England Those That Pass Us By, 
Here, Faithful To Their Charge, Her Soldiers Lie.


Hence my tag line.

JY 
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptySun Feb 09, 2020 7:57 am

Ah. I did wonder if it were something from the Iliad or some such, but the Thermopylae link makes more sense in an historical way. But who would the role of Leonidas fall to?
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyMon Feb 10, 2020 8:40 am

sc-em,

Back to the documentary - naturally to attract your audience you have say something controversial based on limited research. The comment about Chard/Bromhead VC awards are based on published comments made by Wolseley - who I think had 'chip on his shoulder' because the gallantry of his near contemporaries Roberts and Wood were recognised. All awards were vetted by War Office before being published so the deeds of Chard/Bromhead were correctly processed. Remember that in 1879, the only awards for gallantry were VC and DCM (other ranks only). Perhaps, in more enlightened times Chard/Bromhead might have been awarded a DSO or MC.

If you look at pre-1879 Army Lists, Chelmsford was the most fitted to command the army for Zulu campaign; the other option was Wolseley but he was just committed elsewhere as CinC Cyprus. Chelmsford had 'cut his teeth' in charge of the logistics for the 1868 Abyssinian campaign mounted from India. Preparation and mounting for the 1878/79 advance into Zululand needed his sound experience - no other British General officer could achieved the objective. Regarding Chelmsford's promotion after AZW, it was usual for officers of General rank to get automatic 'time promotion' in Victorian times as well as junior officer ranks could still purchase their way up the ranks (the latter was abolished in 1871).
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyMon Feb 10, 2020 4:29 pm

sc-em,

In my view there are a number contenders for the role of Leonidas.

To draw another analogy to Ancient Greek warfare there is only one contender for role of Pheidippides at Marathon - on the British side - that is Horace Smith-Dorrien.

JY 
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyMon Feb 10, 2020 7:44 pm

That's some pertinent comment, Kenny and I see your point. I was by no means denigrating any of the awards made/received. As you say, in order to get an audience controversy contrary to popular belief, will win every time. I did find many aspects of the documentary very interesting, and as I work through my collection of newly purchased books, I have not doubt I will become more informed about the Anglo Zulu War in its entirety.

Pheidippides. An interesting character. Mistaken for running from Marathon back to Athens to warn them of the attack of the Persians, whereas in actual fact, the whole army ran back. He ran to Sparta to ask them to assist. Two days there and back only for the Spartans to refuse on religious grounds I believe. Only to die after giving his message.

Smith- Dorrien seems a fascinating character in his own right, not only in terms of his escape from Isandlwana, but also his later army career, too.
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Kenny




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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyMon Feb 10, 2020 10:26 pm

Dear ec-em,

Books and TV programmes are all well but there is nothing better than actually walking the ground. You learn much more about the AZW.
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sc-em


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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyTue Feb 11, 2020 7:30 pm

On my to do list, but teaching full time and having three dogs we wouldn't kennel, precludes me from making the trip at the moment. Hence having to resort to recommended texts and information for more knowing folk on this forum.
Still, we are going to take them to Normandy and visit some of the sites where D Day took place. (or rather the ones I haven't already)
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyTue Feb 11, 2020 10:36 pm

sc-em,

S-D was indeed a most interesting character - a great man who performed great deeds.  I actually give a lecture on him.  To my mind he is a forgotten national hero, a matter that needs to be redressed.

I had the good fortune to know his youngest son, David, who was the image of his father. 

JY
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyWed Feb 12, 2020 6:55 pm

I doubt your lecture tour would come as far North as me, but it does sounds most interesting. It sounds like you are on a bit of a mission with regard to his exploits. Have you made any progress?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyWed Feb 12, 2020 7:45 pm

No I’m happy to travel to any point of the compass to give a talk on the Zulu War from my repertoire.

Just pm me if there’s something you would like to arrange locally.

JY
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PostSubject: Re: BBC 2 documentary   BBC 2 documentary EmptyWed Feb 12, 2020 8:30 pm

I may mention to my mum as she is part of a local history society.
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