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» Captain HUGH O'DONNELL.
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» Great Grandfather James (Jimmy) Robinson DCM
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» In Affectionate Remembrance of P.C. Stephens
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» Colour - Sergeant George William Mabin
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» Trpr. Simpson's medal
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» Someone maybe able to help. 2235 Pte A F Edmonds J7th DCOLrg
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» Medal ribbon on Patrol Jacket
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» One of the lesser-known stories. It took place around the same time as Isandlwana.
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» Isandlwana Survivor photo's
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» <Pte. W. Dunne 2nd Btn 3rd (East Kent) Regiment ('The Buffs') & Sgt. O. Hydenburg (Aydenburg) Natal Native Contingent,)
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» William Papworth. Alan Gardner's servant.
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» Smith-Dorrien 1881
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» Archibald Forbes query
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» nTshingwayo ka Mahole
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» George Astell Pardoe Lieutentant, 13th Light Infantry
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» Press coverage of the Zulu King
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» Mini Series : Shaka: King of the Zulu Nation
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» Henry Felton 3/60th
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» Pvt John Llyod 1/24th
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» William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.
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» 9312 Sapper H Cuthbert 5th Field Coy RE
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» Zulu War to Boer war. Those who served in both.
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» Captain Gardner's Escort
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» Out there from David Jackson
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» The source of the MacKinnon & Shadbolt map discovered.
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 List of identified bodies at Isandlwana

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7732
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Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 10:04 am

I do believe that Pope is in the Colonial Cemetery, but if he died alongside Austin, Mehlokazulu, I wonder why Austin isnt mentioned?
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John Young

John Young

Posts : 2242
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Age : 65
Location : Lower Sheering, Essex

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 10:58 am

Austin? Do you mean Godwin-Austen? You’ve been at that Black Bottle again haven’t you?

Joker Joker Joker

JY
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2445
Join date : 2011-09-12

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 11:20 am

Old Squareface I think!
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 11:21 am

Perhaps Godwin-Austen's buried there too. There are plenty of unmarked graves...
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 11:24 am

Ah Hum! Rolling Eyes
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 11:58 am

Glad you're feeling better Frank!
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7732
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Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 12:34 pm

So, back to the point GODWIN-AUSTEN no mention of him being buried, theoretically with/adjacent to Pope.
Feeling much better Julian, a week in the bush is the panacea for all ills, along with a bottle of Amarula that is.
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2445
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 4:43 pm

Exactly. There's no mention of him being buried anywhere in particular. One spot is as good as another!
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

Posts : 125
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 4:48 pm

I'm a bit partial to hunting Yellowtail off the coast of Baja personally! Glad you're doing better, Frank.

As for Pope, I'd given quite a bit of credence to the Bassage diary that inspired Colonel Snook's battle model for G Coy. However, now it does appear that Pope as well as a decent number of 2/24th personnel managed to make it back towards the Nek.

A few other Officers appear to have been identified with no location recorded. Captain Mostyn (or at least his wedding ring), Lieutenant Cavaye, Lieutenant Macdowel, etc. Perhaps Godwin-Austen was identified, but no record of such exists.
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

Posts : 125
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 5:40 pm

The remains of a "Bennett" were recognized in 1880, lying on a rock, by a Mr. Stantial, identified as such by the name still on his clothing. It's unclear who this Bennett was; the author does not specify whether he was colonial or a regular. I have four Bennetts listed; one Sergeant with the 1/24th, 2 ORs 1/24th and 1 OR 2/24th.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 8:16 pm

I've never come across that before.  Bennett's corpse must have been in quite a state, open to all weathers for over a year!  Can I ask where you came across the anecdote?
By the way, there was also a civilian Mr. Bennett attached to the ACTD.
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 8:20 pm

I found it in an early 1880 letter from W.E. Bale published in the Natal Witness. I'll email it to you this evening.
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WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Mar 14, 2021 10:25 pm

I went ahead and updated my list. As I expected, there are some interesting revelations regarding the 2/24th.

Command

-Lieutenant Colonel Henry Pulleine found on battlefield, ostensibly in camp as music and playing cards were scattered nearby (Unknown Sheffield Lancer). Hamilton Browne is unclear as to his location, but implies somewhere near the camp. Milne says that Col. Glyn and several men went into camp the morning of the 23rd and recognized Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson. Tatham identifies Pulleine in one of the main stands behind the camp. Captain Nourse gives a possible identification of him 800 yds east of the Neck in a half Coy of 24th in a dry streambed. Colonel Mansel states an unidentifiable Officer’s body much like Pulleine’s was found in this location. In Glamour and Tragedy, W. Clements states Pulleine was identified by Offy Shepstone behind the 1/24th camp, near Durnford.
-Colonel Anthony Durnford found in a patch of long grass, near the right rear flank of the camp. In stand between 1/24th Camp and road. Surrounded by NMP/Carbineers and near Lieutenant Scott. Wearing patrol jacket and red RE waistcoast.

Natal Native Horse/Natal Native Contingent
-Captain George P. Shepstone (Political Assistant to Lieut. Col. Durnford) found at a garden-like cluster of trees and large rocks at the western foot of Isandlwana where he is buried.
-Lieutenant Arthur Gibson 3/2 NNC was recognized by his jack boots and cord breeches. Maxwell had him buried alone on the eastern slope of Isandlwana, below Younghusband’s stand. (June)
-Two unknown Officers recognized by Hamilton Browne on the morning of the 22nd, near quite a few spent rounds. Near NNC Camp.
-Lieutenant Norman Black, D Coy 1/1 NNC, found in stand near Durnford.
-Lieutenant Hon. Standish Vereker 3/2 NNC recognized during May expedition by Viscount Downe.
-Acting Surgeon Frank Buee 1/3 NNC identified along Fugitive’s Trail by Commandant A. Montgomery.
-Lieutenant Lonsdale Young, 3/2 NNC was killed in action in one of the dongas along Fugitive’s Trail, witnessed by Captain Stafford.

Royal Artillery
-Bvt. Major Stuart Smith identified 300 yards back from Buffalo by Lieutenant Mainwaring.
-Bvt. Major Francis Russell was killed in action with the Rocket Battery, and subsequently presumably identified with the rest of the rocket battery personnel.
-Gunner William Marshall identified twenty yards on the far side of the Buffalo River, approximately 150 yards to the left of Lieutenants Melvill and Coghill.
-Corporal William Cooper identified as being killed in ravine where guns were lost.
-Gunner William Roscoe tentatively identified by Henry Fynn in a group of five Europeans on the banks of Fugitive’s Drift.

Newcastle Mounted Rifles
-Captain Robert Bradstreet identified in vicinity of Durnford. Also identified by Lieut. Davis on the night of the 22nd, in vicinity of Black’s Koppie which supports Gardner’s version of events.
-Quartermaster George Hitchcock identified in Colonial stand, annotated by Mainwaring and current grave marker.

Buffalo Border Guard
-Trooper Benjamin Gutridge identified by Trooper Symons lying in the midst of where they were bivouacked (along with Trooper Swift and Jackson, Natal Carbineers).

1/24th Regiment

-Captain William Degacher’s (A Coy, 1/24th) ring was possibly recovered, unknown location, by Lieutenant Maxwell during May burials. Degacher was also tentatively identified by his brother, possibly on the approach to Black’s Koppie, on the night of the 22nd.
-Captain George Wardell, H Coy, 1/24th identified during June burials by Col. Black in a stand rear of 1/24th camp along with approximately sixty men (as well as Lieutenant Dyer and a Captain and 3subaltern unidentified).
-Captain Reginald Younghusband, C Coy, 1/24th discovered under Isandlwana Mount + three unidentifiable officers. (Robinson). Mackinnon & Shadbolt states that Major Tongue discovered Younghusband on the night of the 22nd next to Paymaster White. Milne says Glyn discovered Younghusband and George Hodson morning of the 23rd.
-Lieutenant Teignmouth Melvill, Adjutant, was found in uniform on his back, apparently untouched, with the breast of his serge tunic open. (Glyn) Fynn stated that his revolver’s cylinder appeared to have fallen loose in the rocks nearby. Natal side of Buffalo River.
-Lieutenant Neville Coghill was found a little above Melvill, his spurs and leather sword scabbard at his side. (Glyn). Naked save for ring and boots (Hillier). Natal side of the Buffalo River.
-Lieutenant Edgar Anstey, F Coy, 1/24th identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Correspondent Robinson). Wearing corduroy riding trousers and leggings, uniform jacket stripped, a short distance away from main mass of dead (CS Tigar). Underneath the slope of Isandlwana (Correspondent Forbes). Reached Manzimnyama (Unknown source, currently missing). Surrounded by his men (Unknown source, currently missing). Mainwaring states he was found along Fugitive’s Trail, along with Surgeon Shepherd and Major Smith R.A..
-Lieutenant Charles Cavaye, E Coy, 1/24th identified the night of the 22nd, subsequently interred (M&S).
-Lieutenant George Hodson, C Coy 1/24th discovered morning of 23rd by Colonel Glyn, along with Captain Younghusband and Colonel Pulleine (Milne).
-Hon. Major Francis White, Paymaster 1/24th, identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson). Found to left of 2/24th Camp (Historical Records). Found near Younghusband by Major Tongue (M&S).
-Sergeant Major Frederick Gapp 1/24th found near the wagon park near Seaman Aynsley. Mutilations to abdomen, face and inner thighs.
-Colour Sergeant Frederick Wolfe, H Coy, 1/24th identified by Lieutenant Mainwaring with detachment of twenty men near original firing line, often believed to have been a rearguard of sorts.
-Drum Major Robert Taylor, 1/24th recognized on May 21st, unknown location. Identified by Lieutenant Maxwell.
-Sergeant Edward Giles (1/24th Mess Sergeant) was discovered during June expedition one mile from the camp among nine bodies around a horse wagon, near a large stand made around a tree. (Robinson)
-Band Sergeant David Gamble, 1/24th, was last seen by Interpreter Brickhill and Pte. Williams along Fugitive’s Trail, and presumably killed shortly thereafter.
-Pioneer Corporal Henry Richardson, 1/24th, was last seen over 0.25 miles from the Nek by Pte. Bickley. Shortly after, he fell off his horse, wounded in the arm and unable to remount, and was presumably killed shortly thereafter.
*No names provided, but according to Lieutenant Weallens various members of the 1/24th band were recognized on the morning of the 23rd. No location given. One of these may have been Bandsman George Conboye, 1/24th, as his cornet was later retrieved and presented to his brother.

2/24th Regiment
-Lieutenant Julian Dyer, Adjutant 2/24th identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson) during June burials. Dyer identified among Wardell’s stand by Black along with a Captain and subaltern unrecognizable. Bassage states that Dyer was found amongst 11 other men. M&S states he was killed by an assegai wound to the chest, in Wardell stand.
-Lt. Charles Pope, G Coy 2/24th was identified, his body marked with a meat scale from the field kitchens. (Mackinnon & Shadbolt). Marked with cross in Colonial Cemetery (Tulloch)
-Lieutenant Thomas Griffith, B Coy 2/24th tentatively identified as the unknown subaltern in the Wardell stand by Mackinnon & Shadbolt.
-Quartermaster Edward Bloomfield was killed in action at the 2/24th Ammunition wagons, most likely behind the 2/24th camp (or possibly staged by the road, in preparation to support Lord Chelmsford’s force).
-Bandmaster James Bullard, 2/24th was discovered during June expedition one mile from the camp among nine bodies around a horse wagon, near a large stand made around a tree. (Robinson)
*Sergeant McCabe, 2/24th found in or around the camp. (No one matching this name on roster- could be an error for A Coy 2/24th Sergeant James McCaffery).
-Corporal George Sims, F Coy 2/24th identified by Lieutenant Mainwaring while descending Black’s Koppie on the morning of the 23rd.
-Private Benjamin Latham, C Coy 2/24th found in rally clump with Sergeant William Shaw H Coy 2/24th, Private James White C Coy 2/24th and Private Thomas Jones #976, C Coy 2/24th. Location unidentified, but context places them on G Coy’s outlying picquet position (Bassage).
-Private William Waterhouse, F Coy 2/24th (Mainwaring’s servant) discovered in between Black’s Koppie and road by Lieutenant Mainwaring along with Corporal George Sims, F Coy 2/24th.
*Private R. Simpson (28 y/o 24th Foot Private) discovered by unknown Sheffield Lancer in vicinity of the camp. No one by this name on the Casualty Roster.
-Sergeant John Lines, A Coy 2/24th was identified on the morning of the 23rd, unknown location. Likely near the Colour tent, as SGT Ross stated he had died trying to get the 2/24th Colours off.
-Private James Llewellyn, G Coy 2/24th (Lt. Pope’s servant) was identified “with a lump cut out of his cheek.” No location given, identified the morning of the 23rd by SGT Ross.  
-Corporal William Greenhill G Coy 2/24th was identified “with an ear cut off.” Identified by SGT Ross the morning of the 23rd. No location given.
-Private John Watkins, C Coy 2/24th was found by Pte. Sweeney 2/24th during or after the move to secure Black’s Kopje. Blunt force head trauma. Private Lewis confirmed his discovery.
-Boy Joseph McEwan, E Coy 2/24th (misidentified as M’Every possibly) was found by Sweeney or another of his comrades hung “by a chin to a hook, and then they cut his legs off…”
-Private Hugh Perkins, F Coy 2/24th was identified lying on the broad of his back, “cut all to pieces”. Source is Pte. Jones, 2/24th. Pte. Thomas and Pte. Clarke state that Perkins was shot. Pte. Cummings stated that on the road to Rorke’s Drift he saw Perkins lying on the ground. “I could see where he had been bandaging his wound, but had not been able to get any further. He laid down and died, and left to the open world.”
-Private William Terrett, G Coy 2/24th, identified somewhere adjacent to where the 2/24th bivouacked.
-Private Henry Price, G Coy 2/24th was identified where the 2/24th bivouacked after retaking the camp. Described as suffering a gunshot wound to the head and disemboweled. Source is Pte. Nislett.
*Unidentified 24th Regiment Soldier nicknamed P.O. found adjacent to wrecked camp on the night of the 22nd.  

Royal Engineers
-Lieutenant Francis MacDowel was identified as being shot down somewhere “between the General’s tent and the fighting line.” Colonel Black later believed he identified Macdowel by trousers and his blue R.E. coat.
-Sapper Henry Cuthbert, 5th Coy, identified along Fugitive’s Trail by Commandant A. Montgomery, NNC.

Army Hospital Corps/Medical Department
-Surgeon Peter Shepherd discovered and buried along Fugitive’s Trail. However, Lieut. Harford believed he recognized Shepherd lying face next to an ambulance wagon in camp the night of the 22nd.
-Lieutenant of Orderlies Arthur William Hall (Army Hospital Corps) killed in back of ambulance wagon.
-Dr. Thrupp’s unnamed Stores Servant was discovered next to Thrupp’s tent, decapitated, on the night of the 22nd.

Natal Mounted Police
-Trooper Walter Stimson discovered along Fugitive’s Trail not far from camp by Trooper Clarke, NMP.
-Trooper Louis Secretan discovered along Fugitive’s Trail along with three other Police. Secretan was not mutilated, dead of gunshot wound to the back of the head.
-21 Natal Mounted Police were identified with Colonel Durnford's stand, their horses still picketed nearby. Holt states that they were all identified, their bodies buried and marked with "pencil" on a nearby rock or stone.

Royal Navy
-Seaman William Aynsley, Lt. Milne’s servant, was found in the wagon park, close to a wagon and the body of the 1/24th Regimental Sergeant Major Gapp. Identified morning of 23rd by Mounted Infantryman.

Natal Carbineers
-Lieutenant Durrant Scott recognized near Durnford, partially hidden under a broken piece of wagon, unmutilated. Wearing patrol jacket. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper W. Swift identified, Royston states that he was lying on the neck under Black’s Koppie. Killed by knobkerries, identified as man who “died hard” by unknown Natal Carbineer.
-Trooper Harry Davis identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper Charles Borain identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper Peter Lumley identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper Villiers Hawkins identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper H. Dickinson identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper James Blaikie identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.
-Trooper Edwin Tarboton identified, head severed. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp. Muirhead stated that he was hemmed in between two boulders surrounded by 76 spent cartridges.
-Trooper Malcolm Moodie identified by Royston, 400 yards “higher up” from Durnford stand. Family papers states that Moodie died in the entrance to the hospital tent, surrounded by a mound of spent brass.
-Trooper Frederick Jackson identified by Royston, 400 yards “higher up” from Durnford stand.
-Trooper Robert Jackson identified, near Durnford stand.
-Trooper James Deane found in 1/24th Camp.
-Trooper George Ross found in 1/24th Camp.
-Trooper George Macleroy was shot through the side, managed to get on his horse and ride about half a mile before falling. Lieutenant Royston states he was identified one mile from camp. Symons says ½ mile from Neck.
-QM Sergeant John Bullock found in 2/24th Camp. Surrounded by 60+ cartridges- ties in Muirhead’s statement that he was shot while handing out ammunition.
-QM William London found in 1/24th Camp.
-Trooper C. Christian buried unknown location.
-Trooper C. Hayhow buried unknown location.
-Trooper C. Haldane buried unknown location.
-One unidentified Carbineer buried on right of Nek, under Isandhlwana. Either Trooper Mendenhall or Trooper Whitehall.

ACTD/Other
-Wagon Conductor Louis Dubois found on the Natal side of the Buffalo, subsequently reinterred by his brothers.
-Mr. Bennett tentatively identified by a nametag on his clothing by Mr. Edward Stantial in 1880. No location given, presumably along Fugitive’s Trail.
-Captain Gardner’s servant, William Papworth, may have been identified by Commandant Montgomery along Fugitive’s Trail, close to the Buffalo.
-Colonel Hamilton Browne’s unnamed Hottentot groom was found in NNC camp, near horse picket lines.
-Colour Sergeant M.C. Keane identified along Fugitive’s Trail during archaeological survey, by Staff buttons.

Mounted Infantry
-Lieutenant Newnham Davies 2/3rd Regiment identified his Soldier servant near the horse picket lines of where Mounted Men’s camp. Candidates are either Pte. James Shaw or Pte. George Wheatley of the same, both assigned to No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry.
-Pte. William McDonald, 80th Regiment. Detached to No. 1 Squadron, Mounted Infantry. Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien stated that he assisted a Mounted Infantryman who was killed in the same location as Major Stuart Smith, R.A. He states that he was of the 24th Regiment and named MacDonald. However, only Pte. Edward Turner, 1/24th Regiment was attached to the Mounted Infantry and KIA. This leaves the likely identification as Pte. McDonald of the 80th- this makes sense, especially as most Mounted Infantrymen appeared to have discarded their scarlet tunics.


Last edited by WeekendWarrior on Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:43 pm; edited 3 times in total
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aussie inkosi



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 15, 2021 7:57 am

Good Work Weekend Warrior

Have you the locations for Lieut Dyson, Lieut Daly, Lieut Atkinson. it will help me with my project.

thanks.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyMon Mar 15, 2021 3:53 pm

I have not found any record of Lieut. Dyson, Lieut. Daly, or Lieut. Atkinson being found. Atkinson could very likely be the unidentified subaltern found with Wardell. As for Daly, the last sight we have of him is...

"Pat Daly was seen waving his hand, and shouted to some of them (unnamed fugitives) as they rode off, then turned and stuck firmly to his post with the last of his men." -J. Sivewright letter.
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Shaun Winkler



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 2:47 pm

Wow fantastic! thanks for taking the time to put this list together. If I may there is one small correction that needs to be made to the Natal Carbineers.

The troopers name was John Ross Kia at Isandlwana.


-Trooper George Ross found in 1/24th Camp.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 4:54 pm

I think you'll find it was George, not John.
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Shaun Winkler



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 5:04 pm

Julian on the Carbineers memorial at Isandlwana it says J Ross. In Terry Soles book it says John Ross as well as the Natal Carbineers book.

We still discussed where he fell on Pm because I have his medal. Im a bit confused are we talking about the same thing?

https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t10435-tpr-john-ross-natal-carbineer?highlight=John+Ross+natal+Carbineers
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 5:17 pm

Shaun
Apologies, my fault!! Remembering our previous pm, I meant to write 'I think you'll find it was John, not George' but somehow the names became transposed in my writing. Put it down my being easing-of-lockdown-happy.
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Shaun Winkler



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySat Apr 03, 2021 5:41 pm

No Problem Julian. I thought I was the one going mad!LOL
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptySun Apr 04, 2021 9:29 am

No. My privilege I'm afraid.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 12:10 am

I've elected to post my notes on the locations of stands and rough body positions- I'm sure this will be of some use in trying to piece together the final moments of Isandlwana.

PICQUET LINE/MPOFANE DONGA/FORWARD LINES
Archibald Forbes stated that a number of dead were found at the picquet line occupied by G Coy on the night of the 21st, and that just behind this the fallen lay “very thickly” on both sides of the Mpofane Donga, including fifty members of the 24th Regiment fallen as if in a receive cavalry square.
Cpl. Bassage recorded in his diary that G Coy, with the exception of a few men, were found where they were picqueted on the night of the 21st.

Mainwaring states that CS Wolfe of H Coy 1/24th and 20 personnel identified amongst rocks to east of camp, near the advanced position held by the firing line approximately 750 yards out.

1/24TH CAMP
There are a number of slightly differing descriptions of the stand in which Colonel Durnford was found. There seems to have been a desire for various colonial units to claim the honour of having stood with the Colonel of Royal Engineers. The Natal Witness correspondent stated that Durnford was found surrounded by fourteen Carbineers, Lieutenant Scott, a few Natal Mounted Police and about thirty of the 24th Regiment. This number of fourteen Carbineers is confirmed by Trooper Symons and several others. H.P. Holt claims that 21 of the Natal Mounted Police were found in the stand around Durnford, along with the fourteen Carbineers. He adds that this was near where their horses were picqueted.

Correspondent Robinson states that there was a great stand in the rear of the 1/24th camp. 50+ bodies of 24th including three Officers found close together. Not far from these was another group of 60-70 24th. A little to the left (north) of these stands but to the right (south) of the road was the stand of the Carbineers. 20 NMP found “not very far” from here.

Colonel Black wrote that sixty-eight bodies were found in a very small compass behind the 1/24th Officer’s Mess Tent. The majority of these were 24th, but some were of other arms as well. Corporal Bassage clarifies that this was a rally square.

Colonel Mansel states that about eighty (or, in his hand drawn map, about 100) of the 24th were killed in a stand behind the 1/24th camp. He places Durnford’s stand a “little lower down” and between the road and the 1/24th camp. In the printed version of his map, these two centers of resistance appear roughly on line north-south behind the 1/24th camp, but in the hand-drawn version of his map contained in the Killie Campbell Library, Durnford’s stand is depicted as a bit further east, possibly actually in front of the 1/24th camp, and forward of the stand by “100” of the 24th.

Colonel Black writes that “lower down the hill in the same camp” from the stand of 68 personnel behind the Officer’s Mess Tents, another clump of about 60 were found including Capt. Wardell, Lieut. Dyer, and an unrecognizable Captain and subaltern. Colonel Durnford’s stand was close at hand. Black describes this as a center of resistance, with men of all arms found converging on it. Corporal Bassage states Dyer was found surrounded by 11 Soldiers.

The future General Mainwaring recorded that 150 men (mostly 24th) were found behind the north rear of the 1/24th camp, including Col. Durnford, Capt. Wardell, Lieut. Dyer, Lieut. Scott, Lieut. Bradstreet, QM Hitchcock, one Officer 24th unrecognizable.

2/24TH CAMP
Correspondent Robinson stated Capt. Williams of the 2/24th searched the Mounted Infantry, Artillery, 2-24th and NNC camps and found no more than 30-40 bodies, most of whom seemed to have been killed converging on the places where stands were made.

Mansel stated fifty Soldiers of the 24th were found in the 2/24th camp (in another statement he said forty).

ISANDLWANA NEK
Just west of the saddle a large number of dead were observed, including many Natal Mounted Policemen. On the saddle itself were many wagons but less dead.

Lieutenant Mainwaring states that 100 white bodies were interred below Black’s Koppie, on the Nek close to the road.

YOUNGHUSBAND POSITION
Correspondent Robinson stated that Captain Younghusband and 3 unidentified Officers were buried here, and his impression was that more than one Coy made a stand here. A number of Zulus were discovered here, including a ‘Chief’.

Colonel Black describes finding sixty bodies of 24th Soldiers here, along with Younghusband and 2 unidentified Officers. He also collaborated that a number of Zulus were identified here. Interestingly enough, he places a dead Soldier with an artillery tent mallet under the precipice.

Lieutenant Mainwaring wrote, on one of the maps he made of the engagement, that two unidentified Officers and sixty men of the 24th were buried with Younghusband directly under the southwest slope of the mountain. Interestingly enough, this appears a bit of distance from the current cairn marking Younghusband (which is also depicted on the future General’s map)

FUGITIVE’S TRAIL/WESTERN SLOPES
For the first half mile along Fugitive’s Trail from the Nek, a large proportion of casualties appeared to be Royal Artillery.

Along the Fugitive’s Path, along the western slopes down to a “precipitous ravine” were a large number of 24th, described by correspondent Archibald Forbes as “like a long string with knots in it, the strong formed of single corpses, the knots of clusters of dead… gathered to make a gallant stand and die.” This was west of the gully in which a gun limber was discovered brought to bay. Further up the slope, past the limber, was an ambulance wagon surrounded by deceased 24th personnel, ostensibly dragged out and killed.

Correspondent Robinson recorded that along the Fugitive’s Path, about one mile from camp, around a tree, were found ‘many bodies.’ Close by was a horse wagon. These appear to have included Bandmaster Bullard and Sergeant Giles- Robinson added that several regimental police, servants and bandsmen were identified along the track, convincing him that many of the 24th fugitives were men who would not have needed to fall in with their Coys. He collaborates Forbes’ description of the small groups of bodies down the fugitive’s track.

There are a number of statements indicating “many” 24th men found in the small kraals west of the Nek, who had “evidently escaped thus far and then sold their lives desperately”. Trooper Symons added that “a little way from the nek are two old stone kraals & in two of these a portion of the infantry had been brought to bay & there fell”.

In writing of the account of the uKhandempemvu warrior Umhoti, Symons mentions that the bodies in the stone kraals confirmed the story given of a group of Soldiers making a fighting retreat. He concludes that “those killed in the Manzimnyama dongas would have been washed away in the heavy floods that poured down the dongas and streams almost nightly during February.’ He mentions that a number of skeletal bodies were found along the sandy banks of the Manzimnyama stream itself, chiefly NNC with a handful of redcoats.

Col. Black adds that stands were found ‘around a wagon’, and ‘here and there around a tree’ along the fugitive’s path, and that a large number of dead were found west of the Nek, showing gallant resistance. The last of the white fugitives on foot were brought to bay “two miles from the camp.”
Colonel Mansel believed that two-thirds of the 24th Regiment were killed west of the Nek, scattered across the countryside.

Around 40 members of the 24th Regiment were seen in a dry streambed by Capt. Nourse as he made his escape 800 yards west of the Nek, after he had passed the location where the guns were taken. This was confirmed by Inspector Mansel of the NMP. This group may have included Col. Pulleine. The exact location is unknown, but it was along the route taken by the stampede of animals over the Nek.
The two missing, unattributed notes quoted by FWD Jackson state that 1. Lt. Anstey was found at the Manzimnyama and that 2. Col. Black buried him surrounded by his men.

Captain George Shepstone was found below the southwestern face of Isandlwana. QM MacPhail identified the men found with him as members of the Natal Native Horse but the number of cairns there far exceed the number of NNH casualties.

RORKE’S DRIFT ROAD/WESTERN SLOPES
An ‘old Soldier’ gives a slightly questionable 1895 account of a battlefield visit where he mentions riding along the road, and seeing the guns near the mouth of a gully “near the road”. A little further east but prior to reaching the Nek was a mule wagon, surrounded by 20-30 Soldiers, ostensibly on the road itself as the ‘Old Soldier’ speculates that they attempted to retire by the road, but were caught by the right horn.

The May 21st reconnaissance, marching to the battlefield via the wagon track, first noted casualties near the Nek. The implication being that there were few, if any, casualties found along or near the road to Rorke’s Drift.

GUNS
The famous March 14th report, ostensibly by Col. Black, records that one limber was found “on the road leading from the valley towards the Isipezi Mountain” about ¼ mile to the front of the camp. This, obviously, being retrieved and abandoned by the Zulus. The other limber was found lying in the ravine where Lt. Curling stated they were lost, about ½ miles from the Nek (800 yds, Black specifies in a later report).

OTHER
No more than a dozen men were found in the sluit held by the 24th, nor in the whole area surrounding the camp. Mainwaring, though, states that ‘many single bodies’ were found along the service road running across the front of the camp, from the 1/24th tent area to the 2/3rd NNC tent area.

Newman reported that no more than 200 bodies were found in the camp itself, including no more than 25 Africans. Additionally, he made a very confused map printed in the Natal Witness which indicates many bodies in front of (to the east of) the 1/3rd NNC camp, a few hundred yards in front of (to the southeast) of the 1/24th camp, and depicts the last stand of Durnford, Bradstreet etc as halfway between the Mpofane Donga and the 1/24th/Volunteer camp, on both sides of the wagon track. By his own admission, Newman never really strayed out of camp, so I think this map can be safely dismissed as in err.

Numerous sources stated that all or most of the Zulus and Natives appeared to have been removed from the battlefield, some being thrown into a deep gully near the battlefield. Capt. Williams of the 2/24th identified many Zulus in the dongas around the Ingutu Range.

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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:28 am

Quote
"Newman reported that no more than 200 bodies were found in the camp itself, including no more than 25 Africans. Additionally, he made a very confused map printed in the Natal Witness which indicates many bodies in front of (to the east of) the 1/3rd NNC camp, a few hundred yards in front of (to the southeast) of the 1/24th camp, and depicts the last stand of Durnford, Bradstreet etc as halfway between the Mpofane Donga and the 1/24th/Volunteer camp, on both sides of the wagon track. By his own admission, Newman never really strayed out of camp, so I think this map can be safely dismissed as in err."

Mike there is a lot on Noggs map that he could not have possibly seen, however he drew the map(s) in PMB in February and at that point there a number of people in PMB, including Harry Davies that knew chapter and verse the details of the Rocket Battery plus other details. As we have discussed, the track of then is not the track of today, have a look at Mainwarings map.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:29 am

Discard Newman at your peril. Suspect Shocked
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 4:22 pm

I'm sure it has some value, but the locations he assigns for the groupings of dead as being in front of the tents directly contradict the other reports that we have. I think these assignments, if not the map as a whole, can be rightly called into question.

Frank Allewell wrote:
Quote
"Newman reported that no more than 200 bodies were found in the camp itself, including no more than 25 Africans. Additionally, he made a very confused map printed in the Natal Witness which indicates many bodies in front of (to the east of) the 1/3rd NNC camp, a few hundred yards in front of (to the southeast) of the 1/24th camp, and depicts the last stand of Durnford, Bradstreet etc as halfway between the Mpofane Donga and the 1/24th/Volunteer camp, on both sides of the wagon track. By his own admission, Newman never really strayed out of camp, so I think this map can be safely dismissed as in err."

Mike there is a lot on Noggs map that he could not have possibly seen, however he drew the map(s) in PMB in February and at that point there a number of people in PMB, including Harry Davies that knew chapter and verse the details of the Rocket Battery plus other details. As we have discussed, the track of then is not the track of today, have a look at Mainwarings map.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 5:28 pm

Mike
Have you not considered that, given the two locations on the map, N-N's 'Many dead found here' might well be referring to Zulu not British dead?
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 8:30 pm

I will readily admit that possibility had not occurred to me. Good one, although considering how far forward he places Durnford, I'm still inclined to think he had the locations mixed up.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 6:38 am

Mike
Recall that the map was drawn in February. No-one had visited the battlefield. His only informants as to the course of the battle were survivors and the returning men of Chelmsford's Central Column (including himself) who would have described the ground they had traversed on approaching the camp on the evening of the 22nd. Do you remember how they described stumbling over bodies on the plain?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 1:24 pm

I agreed to do the following analysis for Mike partly because I’d never done it before and partly because it fits in nicely with something I’ve been working on as a corollary to my Granger essay in Studies in the ZW vol. V.  Mike has obviously duplicated some of the stands in his list above but he asked me to see if I could match the Imperial coys to the various stands listed.  This is something that Snook tried in his book.

I did not set out to achieve the result I did and I must confess to being taken aback by it.  The intention was just to see how it panned out.  Of course all the figures below must be taken as approximations.  Mixed in with the stands would be all manner of Imperially-uniformed soldiers that will skew the numbers.  Even so, and taking that into account, I was still stunned by the end result.
Anyway, I thought I’d share it with you, as well as with Mike.  Comments welcome.

1 Forbes described a stand of 50 men found near the Mpofane beyond the morning’s picquet line. This was described by Corp. Bassage as being where he’d left them that morning “G Company 2/24th Regiment with the exception of a few men was found lying in the place where they were posted the previous night as an outlying piquet.”
This position would be consistent with a withdrawal from that attained by its final manoeuvre on the field of battle.  From there was a straggling line of dead back towards the camp.  It might be the case that the description of the death of two “men with glass in their eyes” at the base of the saddle represent the deaths of Pope and Godwin-Austen at the end of the straggling line.  Or am I just being fanciful?  There were 82 men in G coy (another 2 were servants and not on the firing line).

2. Bromhead/Mainwaring found Col.-Sergt. Wolfe and his section of 20 men from Wardell’s H coy 1/24th were found on the rocky mound (no officer is recorded with them).

3. Robinson recorded that a stand had taken place in the lower 1/24th camp consisting of Wardell, Dyer, “one officer of the 24th unrecognizable [Black found two – a captain and a subaltern]” and about 60 men, implying H coy 1/24th and the composite coy from the 2/24th.  
Corp. Bassage described the same stand as: “Dyer’s body was found surrounded by about eleven men.  Sixty four were found in a square.  Four companies found.  Lying as they fell fighting back to back.”  C.f. Black’s statement that Wardell and Dyer were found in the same grouping of about 60 bodies.  Bassage implied that the Dyer group may have been a little apart because he could specifically count “about eleven men” around him.  With his “sixty-four…in a square” that would make 76 in this combined stand.  Mansel wrote that the number of bodies here was 80 (100 on a map).  
From the description of the G coy’s final manoeuvre, Dyer’s composite coy clearly did not accompany it,  His body’s presence alongside Wardell’s indicates that their coys retreated and died together, losing men en route.  
After removing the 22 men on camp duties, the average 1st battalion coy strength was 78.4 men.  Deducting Wolfe’s section reduces Wardell’s command to 57.
There were 89 non-G 2nd battalion men in camp (15 on camp duties) leaving 74 men for the composite coy.
The combined command of (57+74) 131 men, even after losing men en route to the ‘stand’ position, cannot be represented by the 76 bodies found.  

4. In Durnford’s stand between the 1/24th  camp and the road were found 8 Carbineers, 21 Police. 2 NMR,  and 30 24th men.  Some of these 30 may have been survivors from the right of Pope’s G coy, stragglers from Wardell’s H coy, or even come from Pullen’s group.

5. Robinson wrote that a stand of 60-70 men (Black: 68) was found west of the 1/24th camp on the slope leading up to Stony (Black’s) Koppie.  Black on his first fleeting visit wrote that among them an officer was recognized by his clothing.  Forbes’s report stated that on Black’s visit Anstey’s body was identified by his leggings.  Black’s later burial party found Anstey “surrounded by his men” and Armitage buried him.  (There is no valid evidence that Anstey was found west of the nek or on the Manzimnyama.  Continuance of such rumours only serves to confuse.)  Armitage also found Cavaye’s diary.  It is likely therefore that the 68 represented some of Mostyn’s F coy 1/24th (to which Anstey belonged) and some of Cavaye’s E coy 1/24th. N.B. The average 1st battalion coy strength was 78.4 men

[The combined Wardell (76), Durnford (62 of which 30 were 24th) and Anstey (68) groups correlate with Maj. Bromhead’s record of a general grouping found “from the upper part of the 1/24th camp to the road: Durnford, Wardell, Dyer, Scott, Bradstreet, Hitchcock, one officer of the 24th unrecognizable (Black had found two), and about 150 men, mostly 24th.”  N.B. The colonials had already been buried.]

6. Brickhill states that QM Pullen with 20 men (camp casuals, pioneers, servants and fugitives) went off to try to turn the tip of the Zulu left horn.  This stand would have been just south of the 1/24th camp and may have melded with Durnford’s mixed force perimeter defence line.  Note that Pullen’s body was never found.

7. Black found that a stand took place on the slope of Isandhlwana above the Artillery camp consisting of Younghusband and 2 other 24th officers (Robinson wrote there were 3; Bromhead/Mainwaring 2) and about 60 men.  These 63 were obviously C coy 1/24th.  N.B. The average 1st battalion coy strength was 78.4 men

8. Bromhead/Mainwaring recorded on the “nek, on the south side of road under Black’s Koppie: about 100 white bodies” from the 24th.    

9. Mansel recorded 50 (elsewhere 40) 24th bodies were found in the 2/24th camp.

[So far unaccounted for is E coy and A coy of the 1/24th which were adjacent on the firing line.  Given that the average 1st battalion coy strength was 78.4 men these two coys would contain 157 men.  It could be posited that the right-hand coy in the retreat (A) would suffer greater attrition in that it was exposed to enemy attack from the front and the left and those men found in the 2/24th camp came from A coy.  The “100 white bodies” on the nek would represent H / Compo. and the remainder of A.]

10. A stand was made was found on the western side of Isandhlwana where the nek joins it by Shepstone who was found surrounded by natives. MacPhail thought they were NNH which was quite impossible.  Snook thought they were Isigqoza (Lonsdale’s NNC coy) but Malindi’s account disproves this.  Droogleever thought they might have been Erskine’s NNC coy of amaCunu since there were no survivors from that tribe.  However, it is equally possible that they were Murray’s NNC coy (also amaCunu) whose whereabouts during the battle is unknown.  When Boast buried these bodies in 1883 he dug 30 graves containing 2 to 4 bodies each, sufficient to accommodate an NNC coy.

11. A move by the Imperial companies on the left of the defence line described by Umhoti resulted in a movement throught he camp and over the nek. From there they followed the Fugitives’ Trail until they descended a ravine down to the Manzimnyama.  Losing men all the way (Forbes’s “long string with knots in it”), Robinson found a stand had been made where the ravine entered the Manzimnyama.  He estimated 40 24th bodies were there. Nourse saw this group 800 yards down the Trail while retreating (and thought he saw Pulleine with them).  Mansel thought he saw a body which looked like Pulleine’s among the 40 dead.  Pulleine’s body was never located but bear in mind that Coghill told two survivors that Pulleine was dead so his presence west of the nek is impossible.  Forty men were found in the stand; perhaps another 25 might be represented by the ‘long string’ and ‘knots’?

12. Another stand was made by an unrecorded number of 24th among the dongas of the Manzimnyama on the western slope of the nek where Symons wrote the soldiers occupied two stone kraals.  Frank’s recent discovery of six cairns in this area suggest there might be 30 bodies there.

Total 24th in camp was 607 (176 2nd battalion and 431 1st battalion).  Of these 8 were in the Rocket Battery (of whom 4 were kia in situ, 1 was kia on the Trail, and 3 escaped) and 5 in the I.M.I. (of whom 1 was kia on the Trail, and 4 escaped).  Ptes, Bickley, Wilson and Williams also escaped.  

Therefore 594 24th men have to be accounted for among the bodies in the twelve stands or on the Trail.

Stand 1        50          G
Stand 2        20          H
Stand 3        76          H    Compo.
Stand 4        30          mixed G/H?
Stand 5        68          F     E
Stand 6        20          pioneers/bandsmen/casuals
Stand 7        63          C
Stand 8      100          mixed H/Compo./A?
Stand 9        50          A
Stand 10        0
Stand 11      40+25    mixed E/F/A?
Stand 12      30          C?
                    40          Capt Williams found no more than 30 to 40 men scattered throughout the camp.

                  592

Pretty close to 594! Remarkable eh?
Julian
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 1:56 pm

Just to clarify Newmans comments
In Norris Newmans original sketch, PMB Repository, ref Map M1-83. The note “many dead found here” doesn’t appear. Other notes are also in differing places.
The map was originally drawn for the Tuesday 4th February edition of the Natal Mercury. It was retraced giving credit to Newman and published in the Natal Witness At that point the notes were changed and added to. An additional map was also produced using the information from Newman and draughted by John Sanderson, editor of The Witness. When Sanderson traced Newmans original map and moved the notes around the direction and meaning of the original Newman map was changed radically. The subsequent reprints of that map followed two separate lines, one with the note another without. The Mercury edition was forwarded to the Standard in London. That led Noggs to complain bitterly about HIS map being printed without being accredited.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana - Page 2 EmptyToday at 3:07 pm

And we all thought fake news was a modern invention!
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