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 List of identified bodies at Isandlwana

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John Young
Danny1960
Digger
Julian Whybra
SRB1965
90th
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Erimus
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Erimus

Erimus

Posts : 18
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Location : Middlesbrough, England

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PostSubject: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Does anyone have, or know the existence of, a comprehensive list of the names of the men who fell and whose bodies were later identified at Isandlwana?

After an admittedly quick search on google at work I haven't been able to find anything. I know there were a number of positive identifications by the various patrols and burial parties in the weeks and months following the battle - for example, I believe the bodies of Col. Durnford and several of the men who fought with him were identified, as were Surgeon Major Shepard, Major Russell and Lt. Anstey, whose body was eventually repatriated back to England.

Any help would be most appreciate. Cheers Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:36 pm

Happy to start of the list for you
Wardell
Dyer
Durnford
Scott
Smith
Melville
Coghill
Shepstone
Bradstreet
Blackie
Gibson
Vereker
Anstey
Pulleine
White
Macleroy

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:40 pm

A full lis of the 856 dead, survivors, statements etc are listed in Englands Sons by Julian Whybra. His latest edition is now for sale.
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Tim Needham

Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:44 pm

This previous thread alludes to identified bodies removed from the battlefield and buried elsewhere:

https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t8818-bodies-removed-from-isandlwana?highlight=Bodies

Regards,

Tim
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:02 pm

Hi All
There were several who were identified from the Colonial Regts , Hitchcock NMR , from memory there were reports of the following Natal Carbs also identified at some stage , these being E.Tarboton , W.Swift , Fred Jackson ( who has a memorial headstone in the Pietermaritzburg Gen Cemetery , George Shepstone , Durnfords Political Agent was killed on the Western Slope of Isandlwana , this is the slope that basically faces R.Drift . I'm sure there are others but not sure who and which publication they were mentioned .
90th Salute
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:15 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Is Pulleine not a touchy subject though? To my knowledge there are conflicting accounts of where his body was located with Browne's account being most often stated but aren't some of his accounts seen as somewhat subject? Certainly I would imagine positively identifying a body in the dim, pre dawn light whilst in a bit of hurry on a battlefield that will have been in a right mess to be difficult.

Cheers
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:20 pm

Hi Erimus
Yes it's a little confusing re Pulleine , as is Surg Shepherd , more than one eyewitness account with these two alone .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:00 pm

Pulleines body was identified by Glynn. Erismus you mentioned Russell? I dont believe he was every identified, some time after the burials were completed a report emanated that remains were seen two miles out that could have been the rocket battery but I dont recall a mention of Russell.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:13 pm

Yes I don't remember hearing that Russell was identified , Maori Hamilton Brown states he recognized Pulleine , he said he saluted his body on the morning of the 23rd , Frank do you know when Glyn went to Isandlwana ?
90th
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:22 pm

Hi Erimus
I was just flicking through Mac & Shad and Maj Black ( later Colonel Black ) mentions burying someone in the uniform of the R.E , Black goes onto to say he believes it was the mortal remains of Macdowel ( Macdowel being a Lt in the R.E. )
90th
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 6:25 pm

Frank and 90th,

Sorry my mistake! I had a head fart and confused Russell with Smith who was killed on the fugitives trail. I dont think I'm familiar with the Glyn account of finding Pulleine.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 6:54 pm

There are three sightings documented.
Trooper Charles Tatham, NC (burial party) from “Hill of the Sphinx”, p.76
”We found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers (who had fallen back on the camp and rallied round the former), Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers who made the last stand. I saw the bodies of both these officers...”.

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Captain C. Nourse, 1/1 NNC(Natal Witness 18 or 19 January 1929)
-”The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was half about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets”.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 7:34 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Now that was naughty.....The Zulus attacking during the annual Infantry vs Artillery whist rubber and music recital....

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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 8:31 pm

Interesting Frank,

The location of Pulleine's body has been discussed on here before at length so we wont go there again. One thing I would like to ask is how much stock you personally put into these "sightings"? In the weeks and months following the battle the condition of the bodies cant have been ideal for positive identification and I know the accounts of the early patrols and subsequent burial parties attest to that
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 9:49 am

Gary
Glynn was at the camp on the 23rd January.
This comment from ymob/Fred

PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes Pulleine - The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 11:09 am Reply with quote
Bonjour,

Milne's report implies that Pulleine's body was found in the perimiter of the camp (or very near of it) and not on the banks of the Manzimyama river.
Milne wrote that Pulleine's body was found BEFORE the departure for Rorke's drift.
« Colonel Glyn and several men went into the camp next morning before we started for Rorke's Drift. The former recognised Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson [sic]".

Erimus

Its always difficult reaching a decision, do we accept all the statements, do we discount all the statements or do we cherry pick. I try to look at the statements and evaluate what is said relative to other data. For instance I cannot accept that there was a card game going on, its pretty absurd. With the balance its trying to achieve a narrative really. In terms of recognising bodies after time and exposure have had the way. The uniforms, the hair, in one case the size of a head. As my Aussie mate is fond of saying, its all conjecture really but sometimes an item pops up that allows the veil to be lifted slightly, Russells batman, Grainger, the missing cairns etc.

Cheers
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 11:30 am

[quote="Frank Allewell"]Gary
Glynn was at the camp on the 23rd January.
This comment from ymob/Fred

PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   Pulleine - The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 11:09 am Reply with quote
Bonjour,

Milne's report implies that Pulleine's body was found in the perimiter of the camp (or very near of it) and not on the banks of the Manzimyama river.
Milne wrote that Pulleine's body was found BEFORE the departure for Rorke's drift.
« Colonel Glyn and several men went into the camp next morning before we started for Rorke's Drift. The former recognised Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson [sic]".

That's the first I think I've read that account. I didnt know that Pulleine was supposedly identified on the morning of 23rd so cheers for that
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 4:12 pm

Thanks Frank , yes Glyn was there wasn't he on the 23rd , he had to be , or how else did he get to RD !? hahahahahaha , I was more thinking you may well have been referring to a later visit , wasn't thinking of the 23rd . Salute Salute
90th Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 6:09 pm

Salute
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Erimus
There are quite a lot of the soldiers identified by their returning comrades on the 22nd and by those in the burial parties and named in their letters e.g. Marshall N/5 R.A., all the Carbineers bar two, etc., etc.
I confess to being intrigued...why would you want a list specifically of those whose bodies had been identified?
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 5:48 pm

Hello Julian,

Call it a morbid fascination! Specifically, there is no particular reason. Accounts of the (post battle) Isandlwana battlefield have always captured my imagination and I was merely curious as to whether a list of the fallen who had been positively identified afterwards, and where they were found to help my understanding of how the final stages of the battle possibly unfolded, has ever been compiled.

Hope I've not offended anyone.

Cheers for the replies everyone
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Digger



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:01 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
There are  three sightings documented.
Trooper Charles Tatham, NC (burial party) from “Hill of the Sphinx”, p.76
”We found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers (who had fallen back on the camp and rallied round the former), Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers who made the last stand. I saw the bodies of both these officers...”.  

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Captain C. Nourse, 1/1 NNC(Natal Witness  18 or 19 January 1929)
-”The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was half about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets”.

I am interested in the comment about Major Stuart Smith of the 5th Brigade Artillery.
Does anyone know if they were at Isandlwana or on the rocket battery?

I believe that one of my relations, my Great uncle, was Gunner 1626, William Wilson who was in "N" Battery 5th Brigade, and was killed at Isandlwana. I assumed he was on the rocket battery but it is possible he was not.
It would be interesting to know where he was, if it is possible.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Digger.
N Bty 5th Bgde were indeed at Isandlwana . Casualties being 1 Officer ( Maj Stuart Smith ) 10 NCO's and 51 other ranks , survivors;  1 Officer ( Lt Curling ) 2 NCO's , 1 Trumpeter and 7 Other ranks , Bombadier Goff also a member of N /5 Bde was attached to the Rocket Battery and survived . These figures from Julian Whybra's 8th Edition of England's Sons . I'd say it's nearly for certain that Wilson was with the Guns , and was most likely killed after the guns had attempted to flee , think I've read somewhere quite possibly Lt Curling , that all the Gunners were killed before the guns had cleared the Plain ? , the remainder of the battery were killed once the Guns had came to grief due to the poor ground , not far onto the fugitives trail. I have pics of where they came to grief .
90th Salute
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Danny1960

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 4:48 pm

Hello 90th, do you have the pictures and would you post on here, I’m interested in seeing those
Many thanks
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 2:16 am

Hi Danny 1960
Sorry , I've no idea how to post pics here , I'll send you Private Mssge Salute
90th
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am

Digger,

These might interest you.

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The two 7-pdr R.M.L. cannon of 'N' Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery taken by the Zulu at iSandlwana.
Photographed at Ulundi, early September 1879.
(John Young Collection.)

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Brevet Major Stuart Smith.
(John Young Collection.)

JY
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Dec 05, 2020 12:46 am

2/24th Regiment:

Lt. Charlie Pope was identified, his body marked with a meat scale from the field kitchens. (Mackinnon & Shadbolt).
Sergeant J. Lines was identified, unknown location. Likely near the Colour tent, as SGT Ross he had died trying to get the 2/24th Colours off.
Private James Llewellyn was identified “with a lump cut out of his cheek.”
Corporal William Greenhill was identified “with an ear cut off.” Both men were identified by SGT Ross.
Private J. Watkins was found by Pte. Sweeney 2/24th during or after the move to secure Black’s Kopje. Blunt force head trauma. Private Lewis confirmed his discovery.
Boy McEwan (misidentified as M’Every possibly) was found by Sweeney or another of his comrades hung “by a chin to a hook, and then they cut his legs off…”
Private Hugh Perkins was identified lying on the broad of his back, “cut all to pieces”. Source is Pte. Jones, 2/24th. Pte. Thomas and Pte. Clarke state that Perkins was shot. Pte. Cummings stated that on the road to Rorke’s Drift he saw Perkins lying on the ground. “I could see where he had been bandaging his wound, but had not been able to get any further. He laid down and died, and left to the open world.”
Private H. Price was identified where the 2/24th bivouacked after retaking the camp. Described as suffering a gunshot wound to the head and disemboweled. Source is Pte. Nislett.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Dec 05, 2020 12:51 am

Royal Engineers
Lieutenant Macdowel was identified as being shot down somewhere “between the General’s tent and the fighting line.” Colonel Black later believed he identified Macdowel by trousers and his blue R.E. coat.
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Dec 05, 2020 8:24 am

Digger
Curling and Smith had 20 artillerymen with them firing the guns. The rest were in the camp. Wilson could have been in either group.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySun Dec 06, 2020 11:37 pm

Here's what I have...

Command

Lieutenant Colonel Henry Pulleine found on battlefield, ostensibly in camp as music and playing cards were scattered nearby (Unknown Sheffield Lancer). Hamilton Browne is unclear as to his location, but implies somewhere near the camp. Milne says that Col. Glyn and several men went into camp the morning of the 23rd and recognized Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson. Tatham identifies Pulleine in one of the main stands behind the camp. Captain Nourse gives a possible identification of him 800 yds east of the Neck in a half Coy of 24th in a dry streambed. Colonel Mansel states an unidentifiable Officer’s body much like Pulleine’s was found in this location.

Colonel Durnford found in a patch of long grass, near the right rear flank of the camp. Surrounded by NMP/Carbineers and near Lieutenant Scott. Wearing patrol jacket and red RE waistcoast.

Natal Native Horse/Natal Native Contingent

Lieutenant Durrant Scott recognized near Durnford, partially hidden under a broken piece of wagon, unmutilated. Wearing patrol jacket. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

George P. Shepstone found at a garden-like cluster of trees and large rocks at the western foot of Isandlwana where he is buried.
Lieutenant Arthur Gibson was recognized by his jack boots and cord breeches. Maxwell had him buried alone on the eastern slope of Isandlwana, below Younghusband’s stand. (June)

Two unknown Officers recognized by Hamilton Browne on the morning of the 22nd, near quite a few spent rounds. Near NNC Camp.

Lieutenant Norman Black, NNC, found in stand near Durnford.

Royal Artillery

Major Smith identified 300 yards back from Buffalo by Lieutenant Mainwaring.
Gunner William Marshall identified twenty yards on the far side of the Buffalo River, approximately 150 yards to the left of Lieutenants Melvill and Coghill.

Corporal William Cooper identified as being killed in ravine where guns were lost.

Newcastle Mounted Rifles

Captain Bradstreet identified in vicinity of Durnford.

1/24th and 2/24th

Drum Major Taylor of the 1/24th recognized, unknown location. (June)

Major Degacher’s ring was possibly recovered, unknown location, by Maxwell. (June)
Captain Wardell identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson).

Colour Sergeant Wolfe identified with detachment near firing line, often believed to have been a rearguard of sorts.

Lieutenant Anstey identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson). Wearing corduroy riding trousers and leggings, uniform jacket stripped, a short distance away from main mass of dead (Tigar). Underneath the slope of Isandlwana (Forbes). Reached Manzimnyama (Unknown source, currently missing). Surrounded by his men (Unknown source, currently missing). Mainwaring states he was found along Fugitive’s Trail, along with Shepherd and Smith.

Lieutenant Dyer identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson). Dyer identified among Wardell’s stand by Black along with a Captain and subaltern unrecognizable. Bassage states that Dyer was found amongst 11 other men. M&S states he was killed by an assegai wound to the chest, in Wardell stand.

Lieutenant Griffith tentatively identified as the unknown subaltern in the Wardell stand by Mackinnon & Shadbolt.

Lieutenant Charles Cavaye identified the night of the 22nd, subsequently interred (M&S).

Major White, Paymaster, identified in a stand rear of 1/24th camp (Robinson). Found to left of 2/24th Camp (Historical Records). Found near Younghusband by Major Tongue (M&S).

Captain Younghusband discovered under Isandlwana Mount + three unidentifiable officers. (Robinson). Mackinnon & Shadbolt states that Major Tongue discovered Younghusband on the night of the 22nd next to Paymaster White. Milne says Glyn discovered Younghusband and Hodgson morning of the 23rd.

Lieutenant Hodgson discovered morning of 23rd by Colonel Glyn, along with Captain Younghusband and Colonel Pulleine (Milne).

Sergeant E. Giles (1/24th Mess Sergeant) was discovered one mile from the camp among nine bodies around a horse wagon, near a large stand made around a tree. (Robinson)

Bandmaster Bullard, 2/24th was discovered one mile from the camp among nine bodies around a horse wagon, near a large stand made around a tree. (Robinson)

Sergeant McCabe, 2/24th found in or around the camp. (No one matching this name on roster).

Sergeant Major F. Gapp 1/24th found near the wagon park. Mutilations to abdomen, face and inner thighs.

Private B. Latham 2/24th found in rally clump with Sergeant W. Shaw, Private James White and Private T. Jones #976. Location unidentified, but context places them on G Coy’s outlying picquet position (Bassage).

Private W. Waterhouse 2/24th (Mainwaring’s servant) discovered in between Black’s Koppie and road by Lieutenant Mainwaring along with an unknown Corporal of the 2/24th.

R. Simpson (28 y/o 24th Foot Private) discovered by unknown Sheffield Lancer in vicinity of the camp. No one by this name on the Casualty Roster.

Lt. Charlie Pope was identified, his body marked with a meat scale from the field kitchens. (Mackinnon & Shadbolt).

Sergeant J. Lines was identified, unknown location. Likely near the Colour tent, as SGT Ross he had died trying to get the 2/24th Colours off.

Private James Llewellyn was identified “with a lump cut out of his cheek.”

Corporal William Greenhill was identified “with an ear cut off.” Both men were identified by SGT Ross.

Private J. Watkins was found by Pte. Sweeney 2/24th during or after the move to secure Black’s Kopje. Blunt force head trauma. Private Lewis confirmed his discovery.

Boy McEwan (misidentified as M’Every possibly) was found by Sweeney or another of his comrades hung “by a chin to a hook, and then they cut his legs off…”

Private Hugh Perkins was identified lying on the broad of his back, “cut all to pieces”. Source is Pte. Jones, 2/24th. Pte. Thomas and Pte. Clarke state that Perkins was shot. Pte. Cummings stated that on the road to Rorke’s Drift he saw Perkins lying on the ground. “I could see where he had been bandaging his wound, but had not been able to get any further. He laid down and died, and left to the open world.”

Private H. Price was identified where the 2/24th bivouacked after retaking the camp. Described as suffering a gunshot wound to the head and disemboweled. Source is Pte. Nislett.

Royal Engineers

Lieutenant Macdowel was identified as being shot down somewhere “between the General’s tent and the fighting line.” Colonel Black later believed he identified Macdowel by trousers and his blue R.E. coat.

Army Hospital Corps/Medical Department

Surgeon Peter Shepherd discovered and buried along Fugitive’s Trail.

Lieutenant A.W. Hall (Army Hospital Corps) killed in back of ambulance wagon.

Natal Mounted Police

Trooper W.E. Stimpson discovered along Fugitive’s Trail not far from camp by Trooper Clarke, NMP.

Trooper Louis discovered along Fugitive’s Trail along with three other Police. Louis was not mutilated, dead of gunshot wound to the back of the head. (Louis not listed on casualty roll).
Lieutenant Melvill was found in uniform on his back, apparently untouched, with the breast of his serge tunic open. (Glyn) Fynn stated that his revolver’s cylinder appeared to have fallen loose in the rocks nearby.

Coghill was found a little above Melvill, his spurs and leather sword scabbard at his side. (Glyn). Naked save for ring and boots (Hillier).

Royal Navy

Seaman Ainsley was found in the wagon park, close to a wagon and the body of the 1/24th Regimental Sergeant Major. Identified morning of 23rd by Mounted Infantryman.

Natal Carbineers

Trooper W. Swift identified, Royston states that he was lying on the neck under Black’s Koppie. Killed by knobkerries, identified as man who “died hard” by unknown Natal Carbineer.

Trooper H. Davis identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper G. Borrain identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper W. Lumley identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper V.C. Hawkins identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper H. Dickinson identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper J. Blaikie identified. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper E. Tarbaton identified, head severed. Royston states he was found in Durnford stand between road and the 1-24th camp.

Trooper M. Moodie identified by Royston, 400 yards “higher up” from Durnford stand.

Trooper F. Jackson identified by Royston, 400 yards “higher up” from Durnford stand.

Trooper E. Jackson identified, near Durnford stand.

QM Sergeant W. Bullock found in 2/24th Camp.

QM W. London found in 1/24th Camp.

Trooper Macleroy was shot through the side, managed to get on his horse and ride about half a mile before falling. Lieutenant Royston states he was identified one mile from camp. Symons says ½ mile from Neck.


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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyMon Dec 07, 2020 6:44 am

Mike
This is what Maqedindaba kaNtshungwayo Mdlalose told the Reverend Lee. “I saw a little white house standing by itself and I sprang into its opening looking for the white man’s drink. At a table there was seated an officer, who when he saw me appear plucked out a little gun and shot me through the cheek. I staggered but found myself still alive so I sprang upon him and finished him with my spear and that is why I am now called ‘Maqedindaba (He who finishes the matter) because I killed the chief induna of the army and here is the scar of the wound he gave me.”

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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyMon Dec 07, 2020 10:27 am

DuBois.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 9:01 am

Im probably 95% sure that Pope is buried with the colonials and as there was a tentative identification of him being with Fred Godwin- Austen I would assume that they are buried close together.
If that summation is in any way correct then there is a problem with Bassage.
Bassage says that G company fell where they were on piquet the prievious night, the rocky ridge area, with the exception of 'a few'.
Its a fare distance between the ridge and the Colonial cemetery and it would be difficult to imagine those two officers running like hell up the slope leaving all their men behind.
There are possible a maximum of 12 graves/cairns that could be attributed to G company on the ridge and according to Boast each grave had between 4 and 6 occupants.
As G company had a complement of 170 plus that would mean at least 100 bodies unaccounted for.
Hence my belief that Bassage was wrong. But more than happy to have the error of my ways pointed out.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 9:58 am

Frank
You are assuming that G coy had all 2nd bn men in it - that goes against Wilson's evidence of seeing a composite coy under Dyer.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 10:34 am

Even if you remove the A Company component and the ancilliaries your still left with a significant company of 140 plus. Quite possibly the biggest company there.
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 10:56 am

Frank
176 from the 2nd bn in camp.
non-G coy:
3 officers
11 NCOs
2 privates on detachment to the Gen. Staff
26 ptes in A
4 ptes in B
8 ptes in C
12 ptes in D
7 ptes in E
4 ptes in F
11 ptes in H
total non-G coy = 88 max. potentially in Dyer's command
Total G coy = 176 - 88 = 88 max. in Pope's command
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 11:33 am

So much depends on the time frame for Wilsons comment about 4 companies being on parade, indeed the possibility is there that he could have been wrong.
But assuming the count took place before Mostyn was ordered onto the ridge, H company was in support of the guns, E company was on the ridge, A, C, F and G would be on parade.
Again I would question why Pope would consider splitting his command, there was no panic, no thought of an attack and most certainly the confidence to deal with any that did take place, so again why would the thought even enter Popes head to split his command?
Wilsons observations seem to be centred around the time he was on his way from the hospital tent towards the parade area, and as we have discussed many times, his visibility was very severely curtailed.
Just some thoughts
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 3:50 pm

My response would be that Pope did not split his command. His command (i.e. G coy) had been on picquet duty and had 'come in' when the fall in was sounded. The rest of the 2nd bn men were in camp, about their duties, when the call came for every man to get a rifle and fall in. There were enough of them to form the equivalent of a normal company. Dyer, being the adjutant, would have taken it upon himself after his arrival at 12, aided by NCOs, to get these men from the 2nd bn camp into a body and form up into a composite coy, presumably alongside G.
The time frame for Wilson's comment I don't believe is important. His memory pictured four coys on the parade ground, when two were out. One of those was Cavaye's; whether the second was Mostyn's or Porteous's does not matter. He knew 2 had left the parade ground and four remained. What's more he was ORDERED to join the 4 companies on the parade ground which he DID. He was in a close-up position to see exactly how many coys there were.
Remember this is WILSON, the ONLY man to survive from all those who paraded that morning, and in a position to KNOW.


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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 7:53 pm

the whole basis of the two 2/24th companies, G plus the composite, is the simple comment of Wilson that there were four companies on parade. From that timing is critical. There were 6 companies in camp, if we we add in a composite then seven. A, C, E, F, H and G plus composite.
A single company was guarding the forward position of the guns, H company. E had been sent onto the ridge. Potentially therefore, if the composite was formed up as a company there would have been at a certain point in time five on parade. That is of course in that point of time before F was sent to the ridge, after that event it is quite correct that Wilson would have seen four companies on parade. So the time for Wilsons comment IS important.
Conversely if that composite did not exist Wilson would quite possibly, before F was sent to the ridge, have seen four companies, A C F and G. Again timing IS important.
Timing, stopped at the critical moment, destroys the theory of the composite company.
As a seperate issue guard changes happen at 0600 hrs. Pope wasnt called back in he was already back in camp.
There is still no explanation as to why the 2/24th would have been reformed into two companies, are we saying that only happened because of Dyer? Again timing is being conflated surely?
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 08, 2020 10:55 pm

Frank
Sorry, my post was a little awry - lack of sleep - I meant to write THREE coys out (E, F, A) and FOUR on the parade ground (C, H, G, and composite).  Sorry to have confused. Wilson described E coy going up the spur and was aware A was out in support of the guns (and therefore F coy had already moved off which it's known took place before A departed) - that left 4 on the parade ground.
No, it's not just about Dyer.  It's about an awareness that there were over 80 men in camp doing nothing who could usefully function on the battlefield.  All credit to Pulleine/Wardell/Melvill/Dyer for their swift reaction in responding to the situation..
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Dec 15, 2020 10:50 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
A full lis of the 856 dead, survivors, statements etc are listed in Englands Sons by Julian Whybra. His latest edition is now for sale.

Can you purchase a copy from this forum ?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Dec 16, 2020 5:31 am

Julian is on the forum he will I assume see your post and make contact otherwise go to the shop on the RRW site, cost is around 18 GBP
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 10:54 pm

We can add Troopers J. Deane and J. Ross of the Natal Carbineers to the list of identified, both found in the 1-24th camp. Four more Carbineers were found but not identified; one near Younghusband's final position and the other three not far from the Nek, just to the right of the trail most of the fugitives took.
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySun Feb 28, 2021 11:18 pm

In fact 20 out of 22 Carbineer bodies were identified and buried. One was unidentified and buried. One body was never found. See Studies in the ZW vol V pp. 114-116.
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Mar 10, 2021 9:33 pm

Sapper H. Cuthbert, R.E. was identified along Fugitive's Trail by Commandant A. Montgomery, 1st NNC, during a July visit to the battlefield.

Acting Surgeon Frank Bull, 1/3 NNC, was likely identified along Fugitive's Trail by the same; Montgomery identified the remains as belonging to "Buee, apparently a doctor" off a piece of paper found on the body.

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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Mar 10, 2021 9:46 pm

Tentatively, Montgomery MAY have identified William Papworth, servant to Captain Gardner, along Fugitive's Trail near the Buffalo.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 6:17 am

2 more potentials for your list Mike
Fynn mentions finding a group of 5 Europeans on the banks of the Fugitives drift, one an Artilleryman with the number 282 on his trousers. Possibly 2182 Gunner William Roscoe, attested 10th December 1872, aged 21 yrs. & 1 month.

Private L. Cummings 1124 F Company 2/24th in a letter to his mother,dated February 5th 1879. Printed in the Weekly Mail 29th March 1879 mentions seeing 'poor little Perkins on the road to Rorkes Drift

‘Poor little Perkins’ was Private Hugh Perkins 25B/1134 of G Company 2nd Battalion

Frank
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WeekendWarrior

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 6:21 am

Frank, I'm glad you're doing well! I have one account by Fynn but not this one, unfortunately. I was tracking Gunner Marshall being found near the Buffalo...

As for Perkins, it seems pretty clear to me that at least some of G Coy managed to get back to the tents. GEN Tulloch has Pope buried in the colonial Cemetery after all.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 7:02 am

Mike
There was an account written by Mansel and Fynn after their inspection of the battlefield, January 1880.
Ive 'assumed', bloody dangerous I know, that in seeing the number 282 that he omitted the '1'. There are no other numbers close to the 2182 so pretty much a good bet it was Roscoe.
Out of hospital and had a weeks recuperation in the bush chasing Elephants and Lion around, great fun.

Frank
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 7:48 am

Frank Allewell wrote:

Out of hospital and had a weeks recuperation in the bush chasing Elephants and Lion around, great fun.
Frank

I thought you'd been quiet, hope your OK.

Could be worse the lions and elephants could have been chasing you around....I had a mate who (somewhere in Darkest Africa) was chased by a stroppy giraffe....(a reticulated one, so he says - don't spose it matters what type though)......
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptySat Mar 13, 2021 8:23 am

Why would you think Pope was not buried there??
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