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 List of identified bodies at Isandlwana

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Erimus

Erimus

Posts : 15
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Age : 31
Location : Middlesbrough, England

List of identified bodies at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 1:22 pm

Does anyone have, or know the existence of, a comprehensive list of the names of the men who fell and whose bodies were later identified at Isandlwana?

After an admittedly quick search on google at work I haven't been able to find anything. I know there were a number of positive identifications by the various patrols and burial parties in the weeks and months following the battle - for example, I believe the bodies of Col. Durnford and several of the men who fought with him were identified, as were Surgeon Major Shepard, Major Russell and Lt. Anstey, whose body was eventually repatriated back to England.

Any help would be most appreciate. Cheers Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:36 pm

Happy to start of the list for you
Wardell
Dyer
Durnford
Scott
Smith
Melville
Coghill
Shepstone
Bradstreet
Blackie
Gibson
Vereker
Anstey
Pulleine
White
Macleroy

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:40 pm

A full lis of the 856 dead, survivors, statements etc are listed in Englands Sons by Julian Whybra. His latest edition is now for sale.
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Tim Needham

Tim Needham

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 2:44 pm

This previous thread alludes to identified bodies removed from the battlefield and buried elsewhere:

https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t8818-bodies-removed-from-isandlwana?highlight=Bodies

Regards,

Tim
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:02 pm

Hi All
There were several who were identified from the Colonial Regts , Hitchcock NMR , from memory there were reports of the following Natal Carbs also identified at some stage , these being E.Tarboton , W.Swift , Fred Jackson ( who has a memorial headstone in the Pietermaritzburg Gen Cemetery , George Shepstone , Durnfords Political Agent was killed on the Western Slope of Isandlwana , this is the slope that basically faces R.Drift . I'm sure there are others but not sure who and which publication they were mentioned .
90th Salute
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Erimus

Erimus

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Location : Middlesbrough, England

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:15 pm

Thanks for the replies.

Is Pulleine not a touchy subject though? To my knowledge there are conflicting accounts of where his body was located with Browne's account being most often stated but aren't some of his accounts seen as somewhat subject? Certainly I would imagine positively identifying a body in the dim, pre dawn light whilst in a bit of hurry on a battlefield that will have been in a right mess to be difficult.

Cheers
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 4:20 pm

Hi Erimus
Yes it's a little confusing re Pulleine , as is Surg Shepherd , more than one eyewitness account with these two alone .
90th Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:00 pm

Pulleines body was identified by Glynn. Erismus you mentioned Russell? I dont believe he was every identified, some time after the burials were completed a report emanated that remains were seen two miles out that could have been the rocket battery but I dont recall a mention of Russell.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:13 pm

Yes I don't remember hearing that Russell was identified , Maori Hamilton Brown states he recognized Pulleine , he said he saluted his body on the morning of the 23rd , Frank do you know when Glyn went to Isandlwana ?
90th
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 5:22 pm

Hi Erimus
I was just flicking through Mac & Shad and Maj Black ( later Colonel Black ) mentions burying someone in the uniform of the R.E , Black goes onto to say he believes it was the mortal remains of Macdowel ( Macdowel being a Lt in the R.E. )
90th
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 6:25 pm

Frank and 90th,

Sorry my mistake! I had a head fart and confused Russell with Smith who was killed on the fugitives trail. I dont think I'm familiar with the Glyn account of finding Pulleine.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 6:54 pm

There are three sightings documented.
Trooper Charles Tatham, NC (burial party) from “Hill of the Sphinx”, p.76
”We found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers (who had fallen back on the camp and rallied round the former), Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers who made the last stand. I saw the bodies of both these officers...”.

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Captain C. Nourse, 1/1 NNC(Natal Witness 18 or 19 January 1929)
-”The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was half about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets”.
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SRB1965

SRB1965

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Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 7:34 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Now that was naughty.....The Zulus attacking during the annual Infantry vs Artillery whist rubber and music recital....

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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Aug 18, 2020 8:31 pm

Interesting Frank,

The location of Pulleine's body has been discussed on here before at length so we wont go there again. One thing I would like to ask is how much stock you personally put into these "sightings"? In the weeks and months following the battle the condition of the bodies cant have been ideal for positive identification and I know the accounts of the early patrols and subsequent burial parties attest to that
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 9:49 am

Gary
Glynn was at the camp on the 23rd January.
This comment from ymob/Fred

PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes Pulleine - The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 11:09 am Reply with quote
Bonjour,

Milne's report implies that Pulleine's body was found in the perimiter of the camp (or very near of it) and not on the banks of the Manzimyama river.
Milne wrote that Pulleine's body was found BEFORE the departure for Rorke's drift.
« Colonel Glyn and several men went into the camp next morning before we started for Rorke's Drift. The former recognised Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson [sic]".

Erimus

Its always difficult reaching a decision, do we accept all the statements, do we discount all the statements or do we cherry pick. I try to look at the statements and evaluate what is said relative to other data. For instance I cannot accept that there was a card game going on, its pretty absurd. With the balance its trying to achieve a narrative really. In terms of recognising bodies after time and exposure have had the way. The uniforms, the hair, in one case the size of a head. As my Aussie mate is fond of saying, its all conjecture really but sometimes an item pops up that allows the veil to be lifted slightly, Russells batman, Grainger, the missing cairns etc.

Cheers
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Erimus

Erimus

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 11:30 am

[quote="Frank Allewell"]Gary
Glynn was at the camp on the 23rd January.
This comment from ymob/Fred

PostSubject: Re: The Western Slopes   Pulleine - The Western Slopes EmptyThu May 09, 2019 11:09 am Reply with quote
Bonjour,

Milne's report implies that Pulleine's body was found in the perimiter of the camp (or very near of it) and not on the banks of the Manzimyama river.
Milne wrote that Pulleine's body was found BEFORE the departure for Rorke's drift.
« Colonel Glyn and several men went into the camp next morning before we started for Rorke's Drift. The former recognised Colonel Pulleine, Captain Younghusband and Lieutenant Hodgson [sic]".

That's the first I think I've read that account. I didnt know that Pulleine was supposedly identified on the morning of 23rd so cheers for that
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90th

90th

Posts : 10136
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Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 4:12 pm

Thanks Frank , yes Glyn was there wasn't he on the 23rd , he had to be , or how else did he get to RD !? hahahahahaha , I was more thinking you may well have been referring to a later visit , wasn't thinking of the 23rd . Salute Salute
90th Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 19, 2020 6:09 pm

Salute
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Julian Whybra



Posts : 2357
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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 3:18 pm

Erimus
There are quite a lot of the soldiers identified by their returning comrades on the 22nd and by those in the burial parties and named in their letters e.g. Marshall N/5 R.A., all the Carbineers bar two, etc., etc.
I confess to being intrigued...why would you want a list specifically of those whose bodies had been identified?
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Erimus

Erimus

Posts : 15
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Location : Middlesbrough, England

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Sep 08, 2020 5:48 pm

Hello Julian,

Call it a morbid fascination! Specifically, there is no particular reason. Accounts of the (post battle) Isandlwana battlefield have always captured my imagination and I was merely curious as to whether a list of the fallen who had been positively identified afterwards, and where they were found to help my understanding of how the final stages of the battle possibly unfolded, has ever been compiled.

Hope I've not offended anyone.

Cheers for the replies everyone
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Digger



Posts : 8
Join date : 2011-11-13

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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyMon Sep 14, 2020 10:01 pm

Frank Allewell wrote:
There are  three sightings documented.
Trooper Charles Tatham, NC (burial party) from “Hill of the Sphinx”, p.76
”We found the bodies of Colonel Pulleine and Colonel Durnford lying amongst those of the Imperial soldiers (who had fallen back on the camp and rallied round the former), Natal Mounted Police and Volunteers who made the last stand. I saw the bodies of both these officers...”.  

Anon. Corporal, 17th Lancers, Northern Echo, 12 July 1879
”We buried the Colonel of the 24th [Pulleine] and the Major [Stuart Smith] of the 5th Brigade Artillery in full uniform. I enclose you letters and cards which lay close to the Colonel of the 24th . They had evidently been playing cards, for a whole pack was kicked about. Lots of music, too, I picked up”.

Captain C. Nourse, 1/1 NNC(Natal Witness  18 or 19 January 1929)
-”The guns, which I had thought had escaped, horses and men, were all dead, huddled in a donga. The last and most pathetic sight was half about half a company of the 24th, with their Colonel mounted in their midst, assegaid, just out of reach of their bayonets”.

I am interested in the comment about Major Stuart Smith of the 5th Brigade Artillery.
Does anyone know if they were at Isandlwana or on the rocket battery?

I believe that one of my relations, my Great uncle, was Gunner 1626, William Wilson who was in "N" Battery 5th Brigade, and was killed at Isandlwana. I assumed he was on the rocket battery but it is possible he was not.
It would be interesting to know where he was, if it is possible.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Identified bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyTue Sep 15, 2020 2:27 am

Hi Digger.
N Bty 5th Bgde were indeed at Isandlwana . Casualties being 1 Officer ( Maj Stuart Smith ) 10 NCO's and 51 other ranks , survivors;  1 Officer ( Lt Curling ) 2 NCO's , 1 Trumpeter and 7 Other ranks , Bombadier Goff also a member of N /5 Bde was attached to the Rocket Battery and survived . These figures from Julian Whybra's 8th Edition of England's Sons . I'd say it's nearly for certain that Wilson was with the Guns , and was most likely killed after the guns had attempted to flee , think I've read somewhere quite possibly Lt Curling , that all the Gunners were killed before the guns had cleared the Plain ? , the remainder of the battery were killed once the Guns had came to grief due to the poor ground , not far onto the fugitives trail. I have pics of where they came to grief .
90th Salute
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Danny1960



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PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyWed Sep 16, 2020 4:48 pm

Hello 90th, do you have the pictures and would you post on here, I’m interested in seeing those
Many thanks
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: List of Bodies at Isandlwana    List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 2:16 am

Hi Danny 1960
Sorry , I've no idea how to post pics here , I'll send you Private Mssge Salute
90th
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John Young

John Young

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List of identified bodies at Isandlwana Empty
PostSubject: Re: List of identified bodies at Isandlwana   List of identified bodies at Isandlwana EmptyThu Sep 17, 2020 5:30 am

Digger,

These might interest you.

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The two 7-pdr R.M.L. cannon of 'N' Battery, 5th Brigade, Royal Artillery taken by the Zulu at iSandlwana.
Photographed at Ulundi, early September 1879.
(John Young Collection.)

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Brevet Major Stuart Smith.
(John Young Collection.)

JY
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List of identified bodies at Isandlwana Empty
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