Latest topics | » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonYesterday at 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Yesterday at 4:29 pm by Julian Whybra » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSun Nov 03, 2024 10:48 am by Julian Whybra » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 » 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BARSun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash » A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra » Isandlwana papers he,d by the RE museum Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:06 am by 90th » An Irish V.C. conundrum?Thu Oct 03, 2024 10:51 am by Julian Whybra » William Moore / William Potter 24th RegimentThu Sep 26, 2024 3:04 pm by Dash » Stalybridge men in the 24thThu Sep 26, 2024 2:24 pm by Dash |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
Henry Martini
Posts : 7 Join date : 2021-09-22
| Subject: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Mon Oct 04, 2021 12:14 am | |
| Its been interesting to piece together the fight at Rorke's Drift for the Hospital. I have created a slide layout for the hospital and have tracked each man through it, confronted by the mysteries and unknowns. Here is one of them I find interesting.
There are definitely 2 and potentially 3 unnamed patients who were in the hospital at the time of the fight and not well enough to man the barricades or hospital loopholes. 2 of them were in the room with John Williams. These two unnamed patients follow him through the mouse hole in the wall. There is potentially a 3rd man depending on where you think Pte. Jenkins and Adams were killed and when.
So let's just stick with the 2 certain patients with John Williams. Let's suppose that whomever they were, they were reported on the Chard Roll as being at Rorke's Drift. My first thought was to clear all of the people who are not B/2/24 personnel. In doing so, I am able to account for all non-B company personal in locations outside of the hospital except for these 4 blokes:
1/24th Pte. Payton T. Pte. Turner H. Pte. Wilson E.
90th Inf. Cpl. Graham James - I did find a mention of James as a recovered patient in "Like Wolves on the Fold". Recovered seems to indicate that he would have been well enough most likely to man the barricade but there is no source material provided to substantiate this.
Of course this presumes that all of the rest of the B/2/24 men were fit for duty and outside the hospital for the time being and that there would be no other reason for 1/24th men who were not in the hospital to be there.
So, does anyone have any information on the 3 privates from 1/24 who seem to be unaccounted for?
Thanks in advance. Best.
|
| | | Herbie
Posts : 118 Join date : 2017-11-16 Age : 59 Location : Epsom, Surrey
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sat Oct 09, 2021 12:17 pm | |
| Hi Henry, Sgt (not Pte) Edward Wilson and Pte Thomas Payton were part of a prisoner escort which also included Pte’s Patrick Desmond, David Jenkins and William Roy. Several but not all of the 1/24th men were from G Coy. Pte Henry Turner was from H Coy, Pte Beckett from A Coy and Pte’s Roy and Waters from E Coy I believe.
From my reading I understand the 1/24th men in the hospital were Pte’s Roy, Becket and Horrigan (who were all capable of using a rifle) and Pte’s James Jenkins and Edward Nicholas (who were less fit I think but may still have had rifles). The others were all outside presumably or maybe some in the Storehouse.
Regards Phil |
| | | Henry Martini
Posts : 7 Join date : 2021-09-22
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:00 am | |
| Thank you for the reply Phil!
So, we: * know that Desmond fought in the storehouse with Tpr Lugg. * David Jenkins is believed to be the soldier to have pulled Chard down in the yard as a zulu took aim at him
We know that: * Roy, Beckett and Waters were in the Hospital
Can we presume that: * Since Desmond and D. Jenkins were healthy and fighting, that Wilson and Payton would also be? * Anyone know what companies Desmond, D Jenkins, Wilson and Payton were from of the 1/24th? Same G company perhaps? * Any more details on the prisoner escort - when did it arrive at RD?
This would leave Pte. H. Turner out in the cold - if he was not part of the Prisoner Escort and part of H Coy then perhaps he was one of the un-named Patients in the hospital?
The next set of suspects would be the fellows of 2/24 but not of B Coy: Accounted for: * Adams, R - D coy - KIA in the Hospital * Connolly, J - C coy - KIA in Hospital * Hayden G - D coy - KIA in Hospital * Maxfield, R - G coy - KIA in Hospital * Cole Robert - F coy - We know he fought in the Hospital * Partridge, W - G Coy - Colour-SGT Bourne's Batman
Unaccounted: * Chick, James - D Coy - Both Chick and Scanlon were hospital patients and were KIA - gunshot wounds as I understand it, which suggest they were out of the hospital at the time of death. That doesn't prove anything since the 2 un-named patients seem to have made it out of the hospital perhaps to die somewhere else on the defensive line. Hook talks about finding a body slumped over the parapets which was unknow to him by name - surely he would have know all the B coy men - could be either Chick or Scanlon * Scanlon, J - A coy KIA * Cooper, W - F coy * Evens, F - H Coy * Galgey, P - Drummer D coy * Lyons John, Pte 1441 A coy * Manley, J - A coy * Meehan, J - Drummer A coy * Sears, A - A coy * Taylor, James - Lance-SGT E coy * Williams, John Pte 934 E coy
|
| | | Henry Martini
Posts : 7 Join date : 2021-09-22
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:08 am | |
| By the way - I would think that if a soldier escaped the hospital only to be killed somewhere else in the defense (Chick and Scanlon) that that would have been news worthy...
From what I have read - there were a lot of other patients in the hospital but they were healthy enough and capable enough to bear a rifle. So, theoretically, all of these men could have been patients - just which ones were not able to soldier on and were left in the hospital is the question.
Could you speculate that a Drummer or a Lance Sgt would have been mentioned as well? That a patient left as unknown would have to have been a Pte and not of B company since John Williams does not name them - are they not known to him by name then... |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:15 am | |
| |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Tue Nov 09, 2021 4:44 pm | |
| Henry Can I refer you to Studies in the Zulu War vol III 'The Prisoner Escort at Rorke's Drift' and vol II 'Private David Jenkins and a Contemporary Roll of Rorke's Drift Defenders'. The 1/24th prisoner escort was held up at RD when Roy became ill. There were several other 1/24th men at RD. This table should help identify all the men's companies:
1st Battalion 24th Regiment Men at Rorke’s Drift
No. Name Coy Notes
25B/135 Pte. BECKETT, William A hospital patient, dw 25B/568 Pte. DESMOND, Patrick G prisoner escort, slw 1-24/1861 Pte. HORRIGAN, William G hospital patient, kia 25B/295 Pte. JENKINS, David G prisoner escort 25B/841 Pte. JENKINS, James Edmund D hospital patient, kia 25B/625 Pte. NICHOLAS, Edward D hospital patient, probably prisoner escort, kia 25B/372 Pte. PAYTON, Thomas G prisoner escort 1-24/1542 Pte. ROY, William E prisoner escort and hospital patient, mid 25B/104 Pte. TURNER, Henry H Storeman 1-24/447 Pte. WATERS, John E hospital orderly, svw 25B/56 Sergt. WILSON, Edward G prisoner escort
kia = killed in action; dw = died of wounds; slw = slightly wounded; svw = severely wounded; mid = mentioned in dispatches
It is my belief that Pte. Nicholas above was the sixth member of the prisoner escort party though this cannot as yet be proven.
Can I also refer you to England's Sons 'A Roll of Rorke's Drift Hospital Patients' pp. 87-88.
Sergt. Wilson Desmond, D Jenkins, Wilson and Payton were from of the 1/24th |
| | | Henry Martini
Posts : 7 Join date : 2021-09-22
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:29 am | |
| Hi Julian! I actually just got ahold of a copy of your book "The Roll Call"!
Thanks for your post. So, the new information I gleaned from it is a reason perhaps that Turner was at RD. If his role was a storeman, that sounds like someone who might have been detailed to RD given its function as a supply depot vs perhaps being sick and left in the hospital.
If this is true then I think it rules out the likely possibility that the other two patients were 1/24 men leaving the men of non-B companies of 2/24 (my most likely suspects) and of course the B co. 2/24 men.
I would think it unlikely that Nicholas would have been part of the prisoner detail. This seems to have been a task detailed to company G under Sgt. Wilson's supervision.
|
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:35 am | |
| Henry The Roll Call dates from 1990 and is out of date (bad news)! England's Sons is its replacement and up to date (send me your e-mail via pm and I'll help you out). |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:07 pm | |
| Henry martini. I know it's been a while since an entry to this post. But in Cpl Lyons letter he states he is outside with others, including Cpl Allen, and that he witnessed Pte Cole being shot dead. Was Pte Cole outside? |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:22 pm | |
| Eddie According to Hook, Cole suffered from claustrophobia and at one point ran outside the front of the building where he was shot in the head and killed. Cole was not a hospital patient but one of the six 'volunteer' privates who stayed in the hospital to protect the patient and defend the building. The other five were the two Williamses, Hook and the two Joneses. |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:43 am | |
| |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:24 am | |
| Eddie As you have probably guessed, Cole was Hook's co-defender in his hospital room. Cole would have had to run through an internal door into one of the front rooms to exit an outside door on to the verandah. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:30 am | |
| Henry I've decided to re-print here pp. 89-90 from England's Sons which should answer your initial question. By all means get back to me if you need to.
U. A Roll of Rorke’s Drift Hospital Patients (fn.1)
The number of patients in the hospital at the beginning of the defence is not definitely known. A number of men from companies other than B coy 2/24th were present at Rorke’s Drift. The reasons for the presence of most of them can be accounted for. For the remainder it may well be that they were patients in the hospital but the fact remains unproven (and they are marked ‘POSSIBLE’ below). The ‘Chard’ Roll of Defenders lists 36 unnamed patients (3 R.A., 5 1/24th, 17 2/24th, 1 90th [fn. 2], 3 N.M.P., and 7 N.N.C.) but quite apart from problems of authenticity, there are many errors in this roll so it cannot be taken as definitive.
1st battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) (fn. 3) 25B/135 Private William Beckett 1-24/1861 Private William Horrigan 25B/841 Private James Edmund Jenkins 25B/625 Private Edward Nicholas 1-24/1542 Private William Roy
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) B coy 25B/1185 Private Edward Savage
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) A coy
2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan POSSIBLE 2-24/1441 Private John Lyons POSSIBLE 2-24/1731 Private John Manley POSSIBLE 25B/1051 Private John Scanlon 2-24/2404 Private Arthur Sears POSSIBLE
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) D coy
2-24/1713 Drummer Patrick Galgey POSSIBLE 25B/987 Private Robert Adams 25B/1335 Private James Chick 2-24/1769 Private Garret Hayden
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) E coy
25B/82 Lance-Sergeant James Taylor POSSIBLE 25B/934 Private John Williams POSSIBLE
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) F coy
25B/1459 Private Robert Cole 25B/1065 Private James Ruck POSSIBLE
1 Not included in these figures is Lieut. Thomas Purvis 1/3rd N.N.C., a hospital patient, who did not remain to assist in the defence but accompanied Witt to safety. 2 1123 Corporal James Graham 90th (Perthshire Volunteers, Light Infantry) Regiment was at Rorke’s Drift by accident, having been sent up in an escort to a convoy after recovering from an illness. See his obituary in The Aldershot News, 4th March 1899. 3 Sergt. Wilson, Ptes. Payton, Desmond, 25B/295 Jenkins, Nicholas and Roy 1/24th had been sent to the rear with prisoners. See Whybra, Julian, ‘Private David Jenkins and a Contemporary Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders’ in Studies in the Zulu War 1879, Volume II, (2nd ed., Writtle, 2013), pp. 59-85. They were at Rorke’s Drift at the time of the battle. Roy had been admitted to hospital with a sore throat in the interim. The same was probably true of Nicholas.
89
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) G coy
25B/623 Sergeant Robert Maxfield 25B/906 Private John Connolly 25B 1410 Private William Partridge POSSIBLE
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) H coy
25B/953 Private Frederick Evans POSSIBLE 25B/954 Private Thomas Evans POSSIBLE
Royal Artillery N Battery 5th Brigade
458 Bombardier Thomas Lewis 1643 Gunner Abraham Evans 2077 Gunner Arthur Howard
Natal Mounted Police
219 Trooper Robert Shedden Green 280 Trooper Sydney H. Hunter 271 Trooper Henry Lugg
1st battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent
Corporal Jesse Handcock Mayor Private (African) name unknown (a native of Mkungo’s isiGqoza)
2nd battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent (fn. 4)
Corporal William Anderson Corporal William Doughty Corporal Ferdnand Christian Schiess Corporal John Wilson
TOTALS 25 definite 11 possible hospital patients 36 total
4 Bourne’s Roll is specific in not naming Corporal Carl Scammell 2/3rd N.N.C. a s a hospital patient.
90 |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:17 pm | |
| Hoping the roll I have is the correct one.
1st Battalion 24th Regiment
All are listed as either Prison escorts or hospital patients with the exception of 'one':- Pte Turner Henry 25B/104. Can we assume that he is a"Possible" until evidence arrives?
RA, N Battery 5th Brigade:
All are listed as Hospital patients with the exception of Gunner Cantwell John 2076. (DCM). In the absence of any Artillery peace or equipment, and his fellow gunners in hospital as patients, is it not "Possible" that he was a patient too? Evidence depending? |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:31 am | |
| The Pembrokeshire Herald and General Advertiser July 4th 1879.
Extracted from Pall Mall Gazette.
Small snippet from the article states that: of the total killed five were hospital patients.
It also goes on to say: The names of those who especially distinguished themselves must be mentioned, John Williams, Hook, William Jones, Robert Jones , all of the 2-24th Regiment that had been posted in the hospital. This could mean that Pte Cole was not assigned and a "Possible" patient.(or could mean all those posted in the hospital that survived were 2-24th)? |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:55 am | |
| A bit confusing but in the Aberystwyth Observer and Monmouthshire News, dated Saturday, June 14 1879. In an article of letters sent home, John Waters indicates that he was an Orderly at the hospital. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:42 am | |
| Eddie Turner H coy was the storeman at RD. Waters E coy was the hospital orderly at RD. Cantwell was the artillery storeman at RD.
|
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:33 pm | |
| Julian Thank for updating me on Turner and Cantwell . I did find evidence Waters was an orderly.
Hope you find evidence for the remainder soon. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:23 pm | |
| I have evidence for all of them. Forgive me, I wasn't sure if you knew, but this has already been done, published, and placed in the public domain. |
| | | Eddie
Posts : 818 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:10 pm | |
| Thank you Julian
When expressing that I hope you find evidence for the remainder soon, I was referring to the eleven possible's on your list above. Hopefully finding the evidence to prove them definite patients. Forgive my ignorance, as I was attempting to assist you in adding information to your list if possible. Cheers Eddie
|
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4160 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:29 pm | |
| Eddie Not at all. I didn't mean to spoil your fun. I just didn't want you to overlap with what's already known and waste your time (that said, doing your own research is always fun and worthwhile and double-checks others' research). You carry on. The 11 you mention I still can't account for on an individual basis as patients, however, if included they do bring the tally up to 36 hospital patients as per the 'Chard' Roll. |
| | | | Unknown Patients at Rorke's Drift | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |