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 Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?

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Tig Van Milcroft
Frank Allewell
Julian Whybra
aussie inkosi
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Tig Van Milcroft




Posts : 50
Join date : 2022-02-21

Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 9:20 am

Julian,

Sorry I should add p316 section 30
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8220
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Age : 75
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 9:48 am

I would say that needs to be put into context, spies in this regard were forward scouts screening the columns on the march. Much the same as the modern army has path finders and point guards. Virtually the whole of the Stuart Archives were in Zulu and translated. They are without doubt a huge source of information but do need to be read in context of words used to translate.
The advance guards were quite often refered as izibukeli. Its those advance guards that could also be known as izinhloli
I hope that helps.

Cheers
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:06 am

For the sake of clarity are we not confusing various zulu's?
Mpatshana ka Sodondo was in the nGobamakosi regiment and fought and was injured at iSandlwana.
Matshana ka Modise fought Dartnell on the 22nd.
Matshane ka Sitshakusa, is the other of the 2 Matshane that Chelmsford was fond of confusing.
Both the Matshane had territory along the Qudeni ridge and forests.
Mpatshane hailed from the North coast area.

Cheers
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


Posts : 372
Join date : 2013-09-16
Age : 56
Location : MELBOURNE

Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:11 am

I should have went into greater detail in how the Zulu lured Durnford out with over 400 men

Durnford acted on the following statement by Lieutenant Cochrane,

"The enemy are in force behind the hills on the left  [this being Mkwene] The enemy are in 3 columns . The columns are separating, one moving to the left and one towards the General the enemy is retiring in every direction"



 This sighting of Zulus retiring came from Mkwene and as Frank has confirmed on many previous posts there is a large amount of dead ground only around 1.5 miles from Mkwene these Zulus retiring wanted the British to follow them up why because the Zulu had 2 regiments concealed in this dead ground, these 2 regiments were sighted by trooper Barker at around 11am, by questioning Barkers testimony will not change the fact that the Zulus were preparing a trap for the British so well did they prepare this trap it took us 140 years to work it out.

90th, Raw numbers these Zulus retiring being 600 in number one of these columns were moving towards the General being around 200 Zulus, Chelmsford had over 2,000 men at Mangeni which is around 12 miles away and Durnford was worried no he over reacted. Also you mentioned the Zulu did not know Chelmsford was at Mangeni that is true but at around 8am gunfire was heard and the Zulu eventually concluded it came from Mangeni hence a sizable British force and it was after this the videttes from Mkwene and Chard starts sighting Zulus in large numbers moving behind Isandlwana the Zulus are pre deploying the Horns of the buffalo and eventually decides on this retiring move to lure the British out

A MASTERCLASS IN CRAFTINESS
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:14 am

Small point Inky, those 3 points were not made by Cochrane only recorded by him. But we dont know over what time period, and that they were all related.

Cheers Mate
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:25 am

Frank would I be correct in saying this is what Durnford acted on "Retiring Zulus" so why then are they Retiring ? You have been to that dead ground  its simple put the two together, even Barker and the Rocket battery confirms it, what more do you need.
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Julian Whybra




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Location : Billericay, Essex

Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:26 am

Tig
Apologies, I sort of made a deliberate slip in my post of 8.37 am.  I should of course have written that the Zulus confronting Dartnell were commanded by Mpatshana kaMondisa who most certainly was not a spy as you will find when you read his account in the J.S. Archive.  He was too busy trying to find and catch his warriors up with the impi.
Mpatshana kaSodondo on the other hand was as he says in the main impi with the inGobamakhosi.

Kate
Ho ho!  I agree it is off topic but in defence, as in attack, I di not introduce the Prussian strategist.  I promise to have nothing more to do with him.


Last edited by Julian Whybra on Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:32 am

Hi Inky
Wasnt having a go at you mate, I have the greatest respect for your theories, just trying to put the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God. Very Happy Very Happy
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:34 am

By the way I have a very strong, unprovable, theory that the last of those messages was delivered by Dirk Dinkelman. Hopefully I will be able to put all those ducks in a row.

Cheers
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gardner1879

gardner1879


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:39 am

I didn't introduce the theme on the thread  of why we concentrate on the British mistakes on the forum rather than the Zulu victories but my response still got 'attacked' and moved and now makes little sense out of context. I see how the rules of the forum work now though.
Off Topic
Anyway so where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? Rolling Eyes
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:45 am

Sorry Frank I did not take it like that mate but what the important missing link here is 

What report was it that Durnford acted on, clearly Lieutenant Raw confirms, its to follow up these retiring Zulus, these retiring Zulus are leading them to that dead ground

Looking forward to your book mate and all your dedicated work and research to this battle. It took me 3 years of deep research to come to my conclusions and I am convinced I have covered all the missing 5 hours.
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Julian Whybra




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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:47 am

Kate
Sincere apologies if you were referring to me. I was not aware I had attached anything you have written.
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:48 am

Sorry Kate Dartnell was at the Mangeni on the night of the 21st Fred Symons confirms it.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:48 am

Kate,
Sitting rather uncomfortably on the raised area above the western side of the mangeni bowl overlooking the hills opposite and to his right. Watching the zulu night fires burning. Its quite possibly the best defensive position in the whole area with its rather sharp drop off's and cliff faces. Its where I would choose to camp.
That would be my guess
Salute

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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 10:53 am

Great Photo Frank need to go again
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 11:02 am

Im so looking forward to meeting up with all my friends up there. Salute
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 11:06 am

Inky every time Ive been to the mangeni valley Ive had a puncture. 7 in total so stopped going. Last time was with Cam in 2019.
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aussie inkosi

aussie inkosi


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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 11:17 am

You would not believe Frank when the Major took me to Isephezi we had our first puncture best you come with us then.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 12:10 pm

Kate
You are quite right. So to get back to answering your original question...yes I think Dartnell certainly was south-east of Hlazakazi, if for no other reason than that's where LC headed for on the 22nd and also Capt. Davey (the last messenger to leave Dartnell) would have informed LC precisely where Dartnell was. The same is true for Walsh, who could only have known the precise location in the dark from Davey.
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Tig Van Milcroft




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Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st?   Where was Dartnell on the night of the 21st? - Page 2 EmptyWed Mar 02, 2022 3:27 pm

Kate,

Here is an overlay showing where very approximately Dartnell may have been with Russells map and an overlay.

In short I agree with Julian SE Hlazikazi facing NE.

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