WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Incongruouse comment in Curling's letter f 7th April
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyToday at 2:59 pm by Tig Van Milcroft

» Samuel Renton Gardner, 17th Lancers
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyToday at 6:05 am by rai

» Robert Chaloner Critchley Long
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyToday at 4:40 am by rai

» John Cannell
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyToday at 3:57 am by rai

» Captain Watson served with the King's Dragoon Guards
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyToday at 3:16 am by rai

» L Company 24th
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 7:45 pm by Eddie

» Captain of Hussars
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 2:37 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 2:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 10:35 am by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 9:38 am by Eddie

» W J Bourne
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 9:29 am by Eddie

» George Middleton
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 8:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 6:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyYesterday at 2:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:58 pm by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 am by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 9:08 am by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyThu Dec 01, 2022 6:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm by Kenny

» Charles Frederick Murray MacGregor
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm by Eddie

» Symonds Jermyn d'Arcy Travers
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Francis S Alcock
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 10:48 am by rai

» Captain Carlos A. Rivers - HMS Shah?
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 8:59 am by rai

» Lieutenant-Colonel McWatters
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 3:10 am by Eddie

» Colonel J. F. Caldwell
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyTue Nov 29, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Major T de la Haye Brotherton. Royal Engineers
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 9:55 pm by Isandula

» Drummer 1899 Albert Thomas Glover 99th Regiment
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 6:06 pm by Albert Glover

» Capts. Dymes and Smythe, 1/1 NNC
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 3:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» number of rounds
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 1:03 pm by free1954

» Did Chelmsford just misinterpret the Reconnaissance information that he had?
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptySun Nov 27, 2022 8:13 pm by Tig Van Milcroft

» Recovered weapons from Gingindhlovu and Kambula
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:55 pm by ADMIN

» Ian Knight. November 2022: AZW Battlefield Sites Report
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:50 pm by ADMIN

» Company Sergeant Major F. W. Peake, Royal Engineers
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 6:25 am by rai

» "Ex-Sergeant Major Craven" - a Curio.
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 5:54 am by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
littlehand
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
ADMIN
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
1879graves
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
rusteze
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
John Young
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
gardner1879
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
rai
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
harry67
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Kenny
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
John Young
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Bill8183
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
gardner1879
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_leftA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. BarA mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Roll john smith Woolfryes horse drift henry Jones Natal spalding Police Mounted Isandlwana martini 2022 anstey james Russell Franklin George harford 24th Prince payne Durnford brown
 

 A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.

Go down 
3 posters
AuthorMessage
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2635
Join date : 2021-01-04

A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Empty
PostSubject: Re: A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.   A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyFri Feb 25, 2022 12:11 am

I've been enjoying reading your posts with some interest Tig. Thank you
Just addressing your last post I think the majority of us on this forum know why the battle was lost and acknowledge the fighting capability of the Zulu and the failings of our own commanders.
I think what fascinates us is the mystery. A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors, extended period before the battlefield was re visited and scarcity of Zulu accounts, as the victors, when looking at the overall numbers involved.
To use an analogy its a bit like a 300 page detective novel were some one has torn out the middle 200 pages. We know why the crime was committed and by whom but what we don't know is the circumstances, and oppertunities that allowed it to take place in the first place.
(and before anyone starts jumping up and down, I am not referring to the Zulu victory as a crime, its just an analogy!)
This is an 1879 Zulu War forum but if you notice Hlobane, Kambula, Ulundi or even Rorke's Drift hardly seem to get  mention and I think it is because of the lack of mystery and the sheer number of survivor accounts that are out there that relate to those battles.

What facinates me personally is trying to fill in the blanks, to piece together the events leading up to the defeat, to study the character traits and personalities of individuals  and try and work out what we did wrong and what perhaps we could have done right.
(Its probably why the subject attracts so many serving and ex coppers.)

I don't think we will ever fill in all the blanks unless some startling new evidence comes to light which is getting more and more unlikely as time passes by.
Its really interesing trying to find those missing pieces though and I think many of us on here will continue pouring over books, wandering the battlefield, and visiting archives until the sunsets on our own camp and the reveille is heard no more.
Welcome to the forum Salute
Kate Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Tig Van Milcroft




Posts : 82
Join date : 2022-02-21

A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Empty
PostSubject: A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.   A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyFri Feb 25, 2022 1:39 am

Gardner1879

I agree there is something of a mystery around Isnadlwana, and like you, that caught me. I read quite a bit, clearly, nowhere near as much as some. Once your head is full of stuff then you look at detail and check information,fill in the detail, check sources, motives etc, no I am not a copper.

It does not take too long to realise that the contemporary politics around this Battle were poisonous, that has consequences.

So I start from a position of thinking about what information I would expect to see, and what I do see, and then ask why am I not seeing this. Much recorded stuff that we do see is written in such a way as to appear to say something but actually is quite ambiguous.

I agree there are inexplicably "missing pages" pronbably as I see it because some people figuratively tore them from history, of failed to ask or answer questions. The why is the poisonous politics.

One example is the famous order to "Defend the camp" apparently written/added by Clery almost as an after thought, (I forget where I read that) not that that is material to my point, but if true material in itself for other reasons.

What is meant by camp? The camp was at least a rectangle of 800 x 300 yards, plus an area on the nek and ground which held the wagon train all 300 of them and the 1500 or so oxen to pull them. It is fanciful to think that there were no stores on the wagons, the oxen may be outspanned but the wagons were essential stores so had to be defended as well. The dispositions of the camp ensured that it was indefensible. The Nek was not defended because Chelmsford had convincedhimself that there were not Zulus behind him and none couold get there in force without him knowing and stopping them. For sure if all combatants had stood shoulder to shoulder they may well have survived, but the "camp" would have been lost. Neither Pulleine nor Durnford had any chance to "Defend the camp". Why? Because the Zulu executed a good plan perfectly, and got lucky due to the missteps of the British leadership.

Ntshingswayo was never asked about his opinion as to strategy.

The court of inquiry left much unasked.

I have reached the conclusion along with others I think that the answer in much more prosaic. The Zulu on the day had the better plan and executed it to perfection. On the British side there were careers and reputations to protect, there was also the reputation of the Army to protect, prestige was very important.

The missing pages may be out there to answer all the missing details, I doubt they are. But the fact remains on the day the Zulu destroyed the camp, because on the days of the campaign they were the army that performed its function at the level required to destroy the opposition. That was no mean feat.







Back to top Go down
Online
ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4310
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 63
Location : KENT

A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Empty
PostSubject: Re: A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.   A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyFri Feb 25, 2022 6:16 pm

I have to agree with Julian. This topic deserves it's own discussion.

This discussion taken from this discussion.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


Last edited by ADMIN on Sat Feb 26, 2022 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
gardner1879

gardner1879


Posts : 2635
Join date : 2021-01-04

A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. Empty
PostSubject: Re: A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.   A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors. EmptyFri Feb 25, 2022 7:19 pm

Hmmmmm not sure why you have done this Pete.
However you're the Admin.
Can I just ask in order for my post above to make any sense would you mind starting this new topic from Tigs 9.55pm post of yesterday to which my post was a reply.
Thanks
Kate
Back to top Go down
 
A mystery caused by the scant number of survivors.
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Post number 1879. Quite a number!
» Number of warriors
» Number of ranks ?
» number of rounds
» Service number prefixes

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: