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 Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?

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gardner1879

gardner1879


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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyThu Jul 21, 2022 10:48 am

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Exeter and Plymouth Gazette - Friday 18 November 1927

N/T of a Bruce in the 1st NNC. There is an Lieut H M Bruce in the 5th Battalion NNC and Sole has H M Bruce him shown in the 'Battalion Unknown' section of his book
There is a Private C. Bruce 1877-78-79 clasp in the Cape Mounted Riflemen but no Francis. scratch
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John Young

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyThu Jul 21, 2022 10:59 am

Kate,

As he was in the Pioneer Column, the Major might have some biographical information on him.

JY
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyThu Jul 21, 2022 11:00 am

Thanks John. I will drop him a line.
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1879graves

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyThu Jul 21, 2022 11:09 am

Captain Francis William Bruce and Mary Sarah Caroline (nee Bean) came to Budleigh and lived at Setlagoli, Clinton Terrace in 1913 or 1914 and Setlagoli, Moor Lane from 1923, named after where Captain Bruce had served in South Africa.

They both died in the late 1920s and are buried in St Peter’s Cemetery, Moor Lane, but there is no gravestone. Captain Bruce was born in India. He is remembered on the War Memorial and the brass plaque in St Peter’s Church.
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyThu Jul 21, 2022 11:16 am

Thanks Andy
In Alderson's book about the Mounted infantry during the Mashonaland Field Force in 1896 I can find no trace of a Francis William Bruce
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyFri Jul 29, 2022 5:41 am

This from Paul Naish in South Africa-
"I found reference to Lt F. W. Bruce of E Troop BSACo Police in A. S. Hickman’s book “MEN WHO MADE RHODESIA.
On pages 30 and 31 there are mentions of his exploits in the Umtali area, and on page 105 in the “REGIMENTAL INDEX” he is registered. There is also a O. R. Bruce Regt. No 559 mentioned.
I will forward your email to the Pioneer Society office in Bulawayo in the hopes that they may some more detail."

Unfortunatly, as of yet, no information of wether he fought in the AZW.
I did find him in my 1890 Mashonaland medal roll as a lieutenant attached to the BSA Company Police but he seems to have dropped off their rolls by the 1897 campaign
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gardner1879

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PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 10:50 am

Some more information from Paul Naish in SA about F.W. Bruce

"Good morning Paul,
In connection with the above I regret to advise that we do not have too much information in Captain Francis William Bruce’s file only the same information of the clippings that you sent us. However I did find out that on the Nominal Roll of the British South Africa Company’s Police (1889 – 1891) he was on the list that made the March to Mashonaland on 5 July to 13 September 1890 and was stationed at Fort Macloutsie, Tuli or Victoria, he was on the Roll as Lieutenant in “E” Troop and he took over Captaincy from Leonard. Possibly a book to read would be “Men who made Rhodesia”.
Sorry I am not much help.
Kind regards,
Marion Keightley
The Pioneers Society"

Thanks Major Salute Salute

Still N/T of any AZW involvement
Kate
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 12:48 pm

This also from the Major, a nice character reference about Bruce:-

"Paul, the book Marion refers to is “How we made Rhodesia” by Maj. A G Leonard. Bruce is mentioned 8 times in the index. I note on Page 110 Leonard states: “Bruce left us today to go to Charter. Though crochety, and given to moods, he is useful in his way, and hard working, and I am sorry to lose him.”

At Page 200, a significant excerpt of a letter from Bruce at Massi Kessi is quoted. Another of his letters is quoted in full on pages 233 and 234.
This book was published as No. 34 of the Gold series of Rhodesiana reprints so should be relatively easy to obtain.
With kindest regards,
Tim Tanser"

Does anyone have a copy of this book “How we made Rhodesia” by Maj. A G Leonard on their bookshelves? It may give us more of a clue about his AZW involvement.
Kate
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Herbie




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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyFri Aug 05, 2022 11:13 pm

Hi Kate
I wonder if the elusiveness of Capt Francis William Bruce from the records of the NNC is closely connected to the confusion over the name of Lt and Acting Surgeon Francis William Buee of 1/3rd NNC who was KIA at Isandlwana. Julian confirms in Englands Sons that he was sometimes named as Bruce or Bull in the NNC records (and Terry Sole lists him as Brice). Clearly they are different men but perhaps their NNC records have somehow been taken as being the same man especially if they both served initially in 1/3rd NNC.

After Isandlwana when the 1/3rd and 2/3rd NNC were disbanded perhaps your Lt Bruce was then promoted Capt into the 1st Battalion after their reorganisation.

Regards Phil.
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptySun Aug 07, 2022 12:29 pm

Hi Phil
Thats an interesting idea and with the vagueness in said records it is possible that the names have become confused. I will pass on your ideas to the Major in SA.
What is confusing though is the newpaper report (and I know they are not the most reliable of sources) has him as a Captain from May 1879 and I can't find any trace of a Captain Bruce in the 1st NNC scratch
Thanks Phil
Kate Salute
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John Young

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptySun Aug 07, 2022 7:29 pm

Kate,

Just to add to the confusion in Keith I. Smith’s book Local General Orders… on page 71 it has a Lieutenant F. Bryce being appointed to the 1st/1st N.N.C.

I wonder if the ‘u’ was misinterpreted as a ‘y’.

JY
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyWed Aug 10, 2022 12:45 pm

This from Petty Officer Tom, thanks Tom Salute

Kate,

I have done a little research on Francis William Bruce (aka: Bryce, aka: Brice).  According to the article you posted the family had changed the last name “Bruce” to “Brice” at one time and then back to “Bruce”.  I was able to find a couple of references to “Brice” being a lieutenant in the Natal Native Pioneers and later the Cape Mounted Rifles.  These both seem to confirm the statements in the newspaper.  (See the two references below.)

One thing that complicates confirming service in the Zulu war for the Natal Native Contingent and the Natal Native Pioneers is that their medal roll listings are incomplete.

I am inclined to believe that Francis William Bruce did serve in the Zulu war and that he did so under the name Francis William Brice. I don’t have positive proof yet but will continue searching.

Tom

1st Reference
“A third column, under Colonel Pearson, was to cross the Thukela river near its mouth. With him was the 2nd Field Company with Captain W R C Wynne, Lieutenants D C Courtney, H B Willock, and C E Haynes; also one Company of Native Pioneers under Lieutenant T R Main. Lieutenants V J Yorke and Brice were appointed Assistant Engineers and took charge of the bridge equipment for crossing the Thukela.” (The only 2 officers of the Natal Native Pioneers to accompany Colonel Pearson’s column to Eshowe were Captain Beddoes and Lieutenant Porrington which would mean that Brice remained at the Lower Tugela working on the bridge until May, which coincides with being promoted to Captain with the Natal Native Contingent.)  

Hit “CTRL” and “Click” on the link below or cut and paste to your search engine.

ROYAL ENGINEERS, (artefacts.co.za)

2nd Reference
“The Western Mercury and Somersetshire Herald”, Saturday, December 3, 1881 reported the marriage of Francis William Brice to Mary Sophia Caroline Bean at Aliwal North, Cape of Good Hope. (The marriage announcement shows he was a Lieutenant in the L.W.C.M.R.)
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyWed Aug 10, 2022 12:47 pm

John I have checked my copy of the Buffalo Border. N/T of Bruce.
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gardner1879

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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyWed Aug 10, 2022 12:47 pm

More info from Tom Salute
Kate,

Here is part two with some more information that I found today.

1871 census shows that Francis William Brice was born at Mysore, India.
1873 Francis William Brice was a 16 year old apprentice indentured in the Merchant Navy.
March 7 1884 Francis Wm. Brice joined the Charles Egan Lodge of the Freemasons at Umtata, Tembuland, South Africa.
19 April 1885 at their son's baptism in Western Super Mare St. John's church Somerset the parents are listed as Francis William Brice, Lieutenant in Methone's Horse, and Mary Sophia Caroline Brice.
11 Jan 1888 Francis William Brice, age 30, a Lt. B.B.P, joined the Stella Lodge of the Freemasons at Vrybrg, Bechuanaland, South Africa.

I found one more piece of information confirming his service with the B.B.P. from a letter by his commanding officer dated September 28, 1885.

"From Colonel F. Carrington, Bechuanaland Border Police to Imperial Secretary, Cape Town."

"Sir, I have the honour to submit, for the approval of his Excellency the High Commissioner the following names of officers of the Bechuanaland Border Police, who have been appointed by me, subject to his Excellency's sanction, on the dates specified against their names.

"Frederick William Brice (Telegraph Troop), August 30th 1885, to be Sub-Lieutenant."

(I have deliberately edited the letter and left out the names of the other officers)

If I find anything else I will pass it on.

Tom
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Eddie




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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyWed Aug 10, 2022 7:44 pm

Scotland's House of Bruce ( Brousse).

This is the Francis indicated in the 1871 Sensus by Gardner1879 above.
Francis William Brice born Mysore India 25th February 1857.
Died November 9th 1927 Budleigh, Salterton, Devon
Age 70.
His Father was Col Sir Edward brice CB 1810-1868 (68)
His mother Ann Young McMaster.
Married: 1 November 1848 Madras Presidency India.

9 Siblings also listed.

AN INTERESTING NOTE:

HUGH MUNBEE BRICE: born India 23 May 1851, died Mpumalanga South Africa 16 Dec 1895. age 44.
This is one of the sibling of Francis William Brice mentioned above, also in S.A.

This could be Lt H M Bruce 5th Battalion NNC, having reverted his name back to Bruce, that Gardner1879 mentioned in his post above.

(https//cferrero.net).

Hope that helps.

Eddie
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Eddie




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Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Francis William Bruce 1st NNC?   Francis William Bruce 1st NNC? EmptyFri Aug 12, 2022 8:28 pm

Hi all

I have double checked the details in my last Post and it does seem that Hugh Munbee Brice
( Bruce) is the brother of Francis William Brice
( Bruce).
Hugh got Married to Elizabeth Reece Newton in Durban 3 Feb 1881.
This most probably is Lt H M Bruce mentioned by Gardner1879 above.

Eddie
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