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 All things Zulu war

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gardner1879
Officer Ted
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Officer Ted

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PostSubject: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Sep 18, 2022 2:51 pm

Hello! I’m Ted! In this we will discuss ALL things Zulu War! Enjoy!
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Sep 18, 2022 2:52 pm

Also how do you get a profile picture scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Sep 18, 2022 3:11 pm

Hi Ted
Welcome to the forum.
I have Pm'd you with the answer.
Kate
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Sep 18, 2022 7:00 pm

Glad it worked Ted (I suprise myselfy sometimes Joker )
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Sep 19, 2022 5:34 pm

Who here thinks isandlwana could have been won if there was a stronger flow of ammunition Salute Salute Salute Salute
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Sep 19, 2022 7:23 pm

Hi Ted
The ammunition controversy has long been debated in AZW circles and first gripped the public imagination when Donald Morris published Washing of the Spears. In it he   picked out certain lines from survivors accounts such as Smith Dorrien, and along with a piece of bent ammunition box banding from iSandlwana which he had sitting on his desk , claimed was proof that desperate soldiers were unable to get into the boxes and tried breaking them open by removing the banding. This in turn led to an ammunition shortage and the loss of the battle. There have also been discussions about the locations of the ammunition wagons in the camp in relation to the firing line and the 'over zealous quartermaster' telling people to get their own wagons.

However after further extensive research this theory  has been proved to be incorrect. The ammuntion box could be broken open with the butt of a rifle, ring pulls from the boxes were found in the firing line during an aercheological dig in 2000 and there are numerous reports that the British were still firing when the line collapsed.
With 70 rounds per man they may have been running short near the end but there is a huge difference betwen running short and running out. If you look at the battle of Ulundi avaerage expenditure was 6.2 rounds per man. At Kambula it was 33 and even at the furious battle of Tamai in 1884 where the Dervishes attacked the British square only 50 rounds were fired per man.

There was an issue with Durnford on the right flank being unable to resupply his force as he couldn't find his wagons but in answer to your question I believe the ammunition supply was not the problem.
The Zulus outflanked and outfought us and had each man had 100 rounds it would have merely prolonged the agony and we would have still lost.
Hope that helps
Kate
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Sep 19, 2022 7:47 pm

Thanks! Didn’t each soldier only carry 7 rounds because they were off-duty?SaluteSaluteSaluteSalute
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 pm

No, the firing line was formed when the Zulus arrived. In fact Mostyn and Cavaye's company had been in action for a little while firing on the enveloping right horn who were moving across their frontage from the Nqutu plateau
The men were fully equipped and initially giving the Zulus a hard time before being out flanked.
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Sep 19, 2022 8:14 pm

Thanks!SaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSaluteSalute
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:45 am

Morning Ted.
The companies would have carried around 70 rounds each, some suggest 90. I would agree with Kate that ammunition, or the lack of it, as not the primary reason for the defeat. It can't be ignored that the companies fought from the initial firing line the full distance across the camp to the south. That would have been impossible without ammunition. I've long held the belief that A and C companies retreating over the tent line would gave passed the 2/24th ammunition wagons and replenished. Again Charlie Pope managed to get a large proportion of his men from the rocky ridge area all the way back to the fit of the scree slope. The men that did get back to the saddle did have a number of potential sources, the Chelmsford re supply wagon was parked on the road ready for dispatch plus of course 1/24 wagons and the various Colonial supply wagons. Fugitives on the trail fought quite a successful retest that would have been impossible without ammunition, like wise the company that perished on the western slopes. Eventually both of these groups would have run out but very late in the battle.
Welcome to the forum
Cheers
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PostSubject: All things Zulu War    All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 2:43 pm

Hi Frank
I see we'll agree to disagree , I can't see Younghusband's Co moving along the tent line , they were far left of the firing line as you know , I believe when they were pushed back , or called back , they decided to take the high ground along the scree slope directly behind them , don't know why they would be semi advancing toward the zulu chest .... as they would've needed to do in moving along the Tent line , especially from their position they could clearly see what was happening , there are 8 or 9 cairns dotted along the scree slope leading toward where Co eventually finished up . I believe those Cairns mark the route of C Co along the scree slope . The company that perished on the Western slope was NNC with George Shepstone , I assume you don't have an Imperial Company getting culled there !? .
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:01 pm

Hi Gary
Sorry didnt explain myself fully. I believe that C and A retreated between the tent lines and the hill, against the slope untill around the 2/24th camp and then up the inclined section. There was most definitly a company perished on the western slopes just of the saddle, theres a whole row of cairns to mark the spot. Theres also a certain amount of evidence that indicates a section descended lower down the slope towards the Manzimnyama.

Cheers
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PostSubject: All things zulu war    All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:27 pm

Hi Frank
As far as I'm aware all the Cairns on the Western Slope where Shepstone was were described as being NNC , can't remember anyone saying , or stating that there was a Company of Imperial troops there , those who constructed the Cairns to my knowledge on the Western slope have never mentioned Imperial troops being buried there ?? . Where did you find this ?? .
90th
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 3:43 pm

Hi Gary
Sorry but I dont know how Shepstone came into the conversation. My points are directed at the western slopes stretching from the saddle as Ive said above.

Cheers
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PostSubject: All things Zulu War    All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 4:16 pm

Hi Frank
Shepstone came into the Conversation because as far as I'm aware it was he , and his NNC that were killed on the Western Slopes.
you wrote .. like wise the company that perished on the western slopes .... do you mean Shepstone's Company or some other ?? .
It's confusing Dutchy ....
90th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:05 pm

Not confusing at all, if you look at what I've written. The western slopes from the saddle not the mountain slope. Walking over the saddle there is a row of at least 6 cairns below them are a further 3. I'm pretty sure they aren't Shepstone, last I saw he was pretty high up the side of the hill. .
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 5:27 pm

Also wasn’t the ammunition too far away?QuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Sep 20, 2022 7:06 pm

Would you consider Rorke’s Drift a victory or a stalemate?
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90th

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PostSubject: All things Zulu War    All things Zulu war EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 1:32 am

Hi Frank
Sorry mate all you said was the Western Slopes , it was unclear where and what you were talking of scratch
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyWed Sep 21, 2022 8:23 am

Ted
The Zulus objective was to, kill the soldiers,plunder the supplies and sack the camp.
The garrisons job was to prevent them from doing so, which they did and the Zulus headed back across the river weary and hungry.
A British victory.
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Oct 02, 2022 9:00 am

👍🏼
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySun Oct 02, 2022 10:26 am

There are plenty of references to ammunition being supplied to the firing line throughout in the conventional way. Ammunition supply is simply not an issue until of course bodies of soldiers were surrounded, isolated, and cut off from that supply. Then it was just a matter of time.
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyThu Oct 06, 2022 7:52 pm

I've been here for a while, found it more enlightening to read than write
Since George Shepstone's name came up, I do have a 2 questions for Mr. Allewell, if you don't mind. On Map 6 of " Enigma " you have Shepstone between C and E Coy's and Raw on Stafford's right, Map 7 positions Charlie between Lonsdale and Pope.
What men are you attributing to Shepstone since he didn't have a command, he was riding with Raw and No. 1 troop Zikhali ?
How did you conclude Raw was as placed in map 7, no reference at all in his statement to Grenfell or that of Nyanda
My interpretation of his statement has always been the reference to a troop of Lonsdale's men is to RL Lonsdale's 3rd NNC ( Erskine 2/3 ), the regulars being F Coy.
Enjoyed your book Frank congrat's ,very thought provoking, will provide a good source for debate I'm sure
Thanks in advance for any response


Last edited by Hunter631 on Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 6:32 am

Good Morning Hunter
Im going to stall a response for a day or so untill I can get back to my home and give you due regard.
Frank
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 12:36 pm

Im only home again on the weekend, but from the notes I have available there is indeed reference in the Grenfell statement.
From : Statement of Lieut. Charles Raw, Natal Native Horse, addressed to Maj. Grenfell, D.A.A.G., Fort Napier. Pietermaritzburg, February 1879.

"On his return he heard firing beyond the camp, and on riding over he found that a number of the Natal Native Horse Contingent had joined Captain G. Shepstone."
Nyanda confirms who Shepstone was fighting with:

 "One company of the red coats and the remainder of our men then came out from the camp to support, and marched to the top of the hill on the left of the camp. We dismounted and moved with them under command of Mr. Shepstone, firing."
  These quotes while not placing Shepstone in camp with them certainly hint at that possibility. As fact George is buried on the western side of the hill along with quite a number of men. A possible clue to who they are comes from Brickfield who mentions the Basutho firing from among the rocks. I would believe that in order for George to have got to the point of his death he would have retreated along similar lines to Younghusband, close to the mountain, hence my placing him in the line as I have.

Again from the same source, Raw places himself and his men.

"We took up to the left of a company of the 24th Regiment, having on our left a troop of Lonsdale’s men."


Frank
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 5:53 pm

Frank, thank you for the response, much appreciated
Perhaps you could check your notes on  return home ”On his return he heard firing beyond the camp, and on riding over he found that a number of the Natal Native Horse Contingent had joined Captain G. Shepstone." this does not appear in Raws statement of 2/79 P’Maritzburg to Grenfell.
Raw says himself “ We left camp proceeding over the hills Capt. George Shepstone going with us” I don’t contend differently, however he had no command of his own, he was with No. 1 Troop Zikhali at this stage.
On pg. 2 “before this my troop had been joined by Roberts with a company of Lonsdale’s footman “ Charlie  refers to Barry’s No. 5 Coy 2/3 NNC as “ Lonsdale’s footmen “
“We took up to the left of company of the 24th Regiment having on our left a troop of Lonsdale’s men” describing his position at the foot of the spur after retreating down. His reference again to Lonsdale’s men is to Commandant Rupert Lonsdale’s 3rd NNC, specifically I suggest Capt. E. Erskine No. 4 Coy, the 24th Coy being Capt. W.E. Mostyn F Coy. who he saw being cut up on the left, N end of the line.
Reading Raw’s account in conjunction with Nyanda IMO gives a clear picture of their actions around Mkwene, on the ridge and after their descent. When the left broke they were “chased into middle of camp” per Nyanda, I think Charlie uses the word driven, however both indicate they were riding hard for the nek “ everyone who could save himself tried to do so”. Neither say anything about taking a position between Pope and JF Lonsdale’s No. 9 Coy on the right, as both state it had already been driven in when they got there. Had they been, their survival would have been impossible.
"One company of the red coats and the remainder of our men then came out from the camp to support, and marched to the top of the hill on the left of the camp. We dismounted and moved with them under command of Mr. Shepstone, firing." Nyanda describes movements on the plateau , I believe in the attempt to retake Mkwene supported by Capt. Murray, Shepstone ordering the forward movement leading Vause's No.3 Troop up before being driven back down.I think we would agree he was not in command of any of the Zikhali Troops.
The brief comment Brickhill makes in his lengthly statement concerning “the Basutos” who had a narrow escape and came through past the Generals Tents I interpret as referring to the flight of the Zikhali escaping the field, which troops he saw will never be  known. Shepstone certainly could have been with them, no question where he ended up, I’ve stood over his final resting place on the western slope.
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 8:06 pm

Evening Hunter
Your quite right , the statement from Raw regarding Shepstone is in the following:
Particulars on Isandlwana from Lieut. R. W. Vause, Natal Native Horse, Natal Mercury, 1 February, 1879.

In regard to Raws position in the line I have:
"When about four hundred yards from the camp we were reinforced with a company of the 24th Regiment, and No. 3 troop, Sikalis’ Horse, which had come back to camp; with these we drove the enemy back again over the hills. About this time the enemy advanced in great force in front of the camp, or should I say more to the left; I turned my troop and engaged them, the troops drawn up in the camp firing over us. We were driven into the camp having no more ammunition, the Zulus following close after us. We took up to the left of a company of the 24th Regiment, having on our left a troop of Lonsdale’s men.

Frank
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Hunter631




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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyFri Oct 07, 2022 9:20 pm

Yes, thank you Frank

We’re both reading the same thing, I offer details in my previous post
I believe your positioning of Raw is based on the wrong Lonsdale, he is not referring to James Faunce but Rupert LaTrobe’s troops

Respectfully, Raw was never on the right of the firing line

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySat Oct 08, 2022 5:17 am

Morning Hunter
As in most things iSandlwana there are, and will always I assume, be different interpretations. Mine are fully open to discussion. His comments about the position he took suggest that it was after he was driven into camp, not on the ridge or the retreat.
Just my opinion.

Frank
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Hunter631




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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptySat Oct 08, 2022 3:44 pm

I fully concur Frank, Raw is describing the position he “took up” after being forced down off the spur, colonials and regulars attempting to regroup at bottom.As you well know JF Lonsdale’s isiGqoza were at the other end of the field on the far right (S)

Nyanda picks up the narrative from their position on the far left (N) of the field

Up to this time no soldiers had fallen, but very many Zulus who, notwithstanding their losses, kept rushing on. We then looked round and saw the guns retreating. We were then chased in the centre of the camp and saw a large number of soldiers being assegaied on the right centre, and on their right were the mounted men. Then the Zulus drove in the right wing and the whole of the force, white and black, foot and horse were mixed together and being assegaied. A rush was then made for the neck and we were met by Zulus on the other side, and every one who could save himself tried to do so. I saw Colonel Durnford in the middle of the camp but I did not see him killed, but he was seen dead by one of my men. The last I saw of Mr. Shepstone was among the tents. 


I honestly don’t see much subject to interpretation in either party’s account, nothing of these men fighting between Pope and James Lonsdale
. They escaped and survived, Pope/Lonsdale did not, that says something
Thank you for the dialogue, 
Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Hi Hunter
I apologise for not getting back sooner. Unfortunatly Hospitals and myself have more than just a passing aquaintance at present. I shall give an alternate view to your interpretation in time.
Regards

Frank
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 5:48 pm

Hunter
Remember that Nyanda would have been mounted and one of the first to escape via the Saddle BEFORE the horns (almost) met giving him not much of an opportunity to see what happened to those coys who made it back to camp from the centre or right of the line.
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyMon Oct 10, 2022 8:00 pm

Thank you Julian

I refer to Nyanda as a primary source account of No. 1 Troop Zikhali fleeing the field with no reference to taking a position between JF Lonsdale and Pope, same with the Raw statement

In my initial and subsequent posts, I believe the point I was making is clear, I don’t believe they ever did.
 My contention has nothing to do with what he saw or didn’t see of the Imperial Coys
Frank’s positioning is simply based on the wrong Lonsdale
Regards

Frank, if you should see this post I wish you all the best and a speedy recovery
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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyTue Oct 11, 2022 8:39 am

Hi
Even so, Nyanda's passage was referring to ONE of Commdt. R. Lonsdale's five coys. The question then arises which one was it...it could even have been James Lonsdale's and Frank could be right 'by default'.
Ask yourself where were the other four!
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Officer Ted

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyWed Nov 16, 2022 7:30 pm

Hi
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Officer Ted

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PostSubject: Re: All things Zulu war   All things Zulu war EmptyWed Nov 16, 2022 7:30 pm

Salute Salute Hi
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