WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu quote: Colour Sergeant Bourne: A prayer’s as good as bayonet on a day like this.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» 142 years on.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 10:29 by ADMIN

» The future of the Museum of the Royal Welsh, Brecon.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 10:04 by ADMIN

» General Buller's statue to be moved?
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 6:54 by 90th

» George Astell Pardoe Lieutentant, 13th Light Infantry
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 3:59 by nail73

» Staff Quarter-Master Sergeant J. E. Faulks, North Staffordshire Regiment
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:37 by 90th

» Private Henry Vaughan, 1st or King’s Dragoon Guards
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:36 by 90th

» Capt. R. Maclean, Nat. Mtd. Inf
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:34 by ADMIN

» Howard Fleetwood Babington.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:15 by 90th

» Tpr. R. G. Nicholson. Diamond Fds Horse
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:04 by 90th

» Notes on England's Sons 8th Edition Pte Wyer/Hudd
Fight us In the Open. EmptyToday at 0:00 by 90th

» Brigadier General Dayrell Talbot Hammond
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 23:59 by ADMIN

» Sgt Major James Barry. 1st Dragoon Guards
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 23:07 by ADMIN

» FREDERICK JOHN DURRANT SCOTT,
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 22:59 by ADMIN

» Major General Brownrigg
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 22:20 by ADMIN

» 1931. Pte. H. Lodge. 80th Foot
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 20:29 by ADMIN

» DAVID FRANCIS LEWIS
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 20:18 by ADMIN

» Captain Walter Haweis James, Royal Engineers.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 18:03 by 1879graves

» Lieutenant James Nicholas Hurt, Lonsdale's Horse.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 17:29 by 1879graves

» Lieutenant Colonel James Ring
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 17:01 by 1879graves

» James Nicholson 2/4th Foot at Lancaster
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 16:34 by 1879graves

» Major A. H. Tylden-Pattenson, East Kent Regiment
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 16:13 by 1879graves

» Springbok in Natal from 2010 through to 2015
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 8:00 by Frank Allewell

» Captain Hugh Rudolph Gough.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyYesterday at 1:55 by 90th

» ◦Maj.-Gen. Richard Steele Rupert Fetherstonhaugh
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 23:00 by ADMIN

» Major Oswald Robert Middleton, 4th (The King’s Own) Regiment of Foot
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 18:39 by ADMIN

» Lieutenant Robert Thomas Graves Lowry
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 18:09 by 1879graves

» Surgeon-Lieutenant-Colonel W. F. BURNETT
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 18:01 by 1879graves

» Major Claude Henry Alexander.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 17:56 by 1879graves

» Lt.Colonel D. T. Persse
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 17:48 by 1879graves

» Colonel William,Egerton Saunders, C.B
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 16:37 by ADMIN

» (3425 Staff Q.M.S. G. Cottle, A.S.C.)
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 14:58 by ADMIN

» Coghill Memorial window
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 11:43 by ADMIN

» New Members Welcome.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 10:10 by ADMIN

» AN ASSESSMENT By ANGELO NICOLAIDES
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 9:57 by ADMIN

» Col. Ormelie Campbell Hannay, late Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.
Fight us In the Open. EmptyWed 20 Jan 2021 - 1:32 by 90th

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu Diorama Brecon Museum
Top posters
90th
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
littlehand
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
ADMIN
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
1879graves
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
rusteze
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
John
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Mr M. Cooper
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
ADMIN
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
90th
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
1879graves
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
John Young
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
nail73
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Blacksmith
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
gardner1879
Fight us In the Open. Bar_leftFight us In the Open. BarFight us In the Open. Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Adding to the Library
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Lieutenant Adendorff 1-3 N.N.C.
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
Franklin Durnford james 24th gardner smith drift taylor Natal Mounted horse Isandlwana carbineers George martini Woolfryes payne Prince henry melvill harford Russell spalding zulu john Police

 

 Fight us In the Open.

Go down 
AuthorMessage
John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptySun 13 Dec 2009 - 12:42

I have read several accounts, where Zulu had challenged the British to fight in the open, and instead of hiding behind Laagers. I’m not sure the British would have been able to stand-up to; let’s say a fair fight (No disrespect meant) if we look at The Battle of Hlobane, and Isandlwana the proof is there, the British were not laagered and they were defeated. I think the outcome would have been the same at Ulundi if this Battle had been fought in the open. When it came to hand to hand combat, the Zulu’s were far superior to the British. What do other members think?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptySun 13 Dec 2009 - 13:18

Isandlwana granted us an object lesson of what happens when out-numbered colonial troops did not take elementary precautions. The British troops were poles apart over fairly large areas to be overcome in detail. The British troops were astonished and had to fight where they were, near their tents and away from the supply wagons, which not only contained their ammunition supply but also could have formed straightforward fortifications. These self-protective mistakes allowed the Zulu to make use of their superior numbers to the fullest, and gave them an undeserved status for military effectiveness.

As it was, even in victory, the Zulu military was crippled by the heavy fatalities incurred. This was hardly surprising, as many of the colonial enemies that the British faced did not have complicated attack configurations and tactics. They would use what is so graphically illustrate in the movie "Zulu" as "the loin and the horns". Fundamentally, the natives would seek to use their superior numbers to attack from the front and the flanks in a bid to overwhelm the British.

It’s near impossible to state who would win, in what you called a fair fight. The Zulu’s in both Battles you mentioned has far superior numbers.

E.H
Back to top Go down
keith4698



Posts : 36
Join date : 2009-09-29

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptySun 13 Dec 2009 - 16:26

How would you define a fair fight? in close quarter battle a British soldier with fixed bayonet would have the advantage over a Zulu with a shield and stabbing spear in a one to one situation but of courses battles are not like that.

Keith
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest



Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptySun 13 Dec 2009 - 22:02

How would you define a fair fight? Good question Keith.

The British were sophisticated in their strategy. As well as having weaponry of great tactical firepower (breech-loading Martini-Henry rifles), the British troops were highly flexible tactically due to the subdivision of their units. The troops could be fought in line at the beginning, with designated units to rebuff their flanks when the natives got too close and threaten the ranks.

A square could be created quickly by redistributing the regiments accordingly, with regiments to the front continuing to dispense hot fire on the enemy. With this kind of flexibility, and with the firepower of the weapons, the natives could not be victorious unless the British make some sort of mistake.
Back to top Go down
Saul David 1879



Posts : 527
Join date : 2009-02-28

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptySun 13 Dec 2009 - 22:37

Elizabeth. This is true.! And as you know, following Isandlwana, we can see that in none of the other actions of the Zulu War did the British endeavour to fight again in their typical linear formation in an open field battle with the main Zulu impi.

SD
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7669
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyMon 14 Dec 2009 - 5:38

An interesting coincidence. I bought a box of books on auction last week, because they were all connected with RSA history. At the bottom was a small booklet written by Prof Labrand called "Fight us in the open". He explores the whole concept of Cetshwayo's express instructions to his commanders not to fight the Brits if they were behind walls with "little holes for firing through".
Ulundi is often held up as an example of the British superior tactics in fighting from a square against an unsophisticated oponent. But pause to think for a second and try and transpose the time of Ulundi to a time possibly prior to 22nd Jan when the Zulu army was INTACT. It hadnt been decimated and demoralised by the losses of Isandlawana, RD, Kambule and Gingindlovu. Frankly my hard earned cash would be on the Zulus for a win.
Quotes from Cornelius Vijn, The general remarks from the Zulus was," Why could the whites not fight us in the open.........we have never fought with men who are so afraid of death as these.......... The English burrow in the ground like wild pigs, The Boers are of more worth, who dare to come at once into open field. Pretty scathing.
Regards


Last edited by springbok9 on Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 9:13; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7669
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyMon 14 Dec 2009 - 9:00

Interesting point that I havent heard rered to before, " I told Ntshingwayo not to go to the English troops at once, but to have a conference (with his officers) and then send some chiefs to ask the English why they were laying waste to the country and killing Zulus, when they had plainly said they had not entered the country to fight, but to talk settlement."Cetshwayo.
Cetshwayo refers to the same point of settlement on a number of occasions. When the army was in hiding before the battle on the 22nd ..............."the officers of the different regiments assembled in order to come to an agreement as to which chiefs they should send to confer with the English........... to settle matters with words and not by arms."
Back to top Go down
Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves

Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyMon 14 Dec 2009 - 15:06

Cetewayo had on many occasions asked for peace. But after the embarrassing defeat at Isandlwana the British had no intention of give up with out a fight, even though it could have all been settled with peace talks. The British had made their minds up that the Zulu nation could be conquered quite quickly from the out set. Lord Chelmsford invaded Zululand without the knowledge of the British Government in the hope that he could Capture Cetshwayo, the Zulu King, before London discovered that hostilities had begun.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7669
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyMon 14 Dec 2009 - 15:10

Quite so Mr G.
Point here is that I wasnt aware that he had issued the instruction for his chiefs to engage the British before opening hostilities.
Back to top Go down
Mr Greaves

Mr Greaves

Posts : 747
Join date : 2009-10-18

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyMon 14 Dec 2009 - 15:27

Quote :
he had issued the instruction for his chiefs to engage the British before opening hostilities.

Could you name your source from where this came from.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7669
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 73
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyTue 15 Dec 2009 - 4:37

Mr G
Extracted from the conversations and letters of Cetshwayo in captivity at Cape Town Castle. quoted from "Fight us in the open" Prof J Laband.
Regards
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 4015
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 61
Location : KENT

Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. EmptyTue 15 Dec 2009 - 22:10

Originally posted by 1879Graves.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]


Hi sas1

This copy listed on the net is signed and is only £18.00. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

£45.00 is far too much for this book.
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com Online
Sponsored content




Fight us In the Open. Empty
PostSubject: Re: Fight us In the Open.   Fight us In the Open. Empty

Back to top Go down
 
Fight us In the Open.
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: