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 Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah

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littlehand
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyThu Feb 25, 2010 9:10 pm

http://www.the-saleroom.com/catalogues/Item.aspx?itemId=8433019
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Pick


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PostSubject: Thomas Bunce Medal   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 5:34 pm

I just joined this forum since I was the (un)lucky bloke to purchase Thomas Bunce's medal that littlehand posted the auction notice on. I hate to admit it, but I bid 600 quid maximum via their web-site, and it sold for precisely just that. Add the 20% commission and 48 quid postage to the US, and I may have just paid a record for an enlisted man's medal Shocked The reason that I wanted it was that I already had Bunce's Long Service and Good Conduct medal, so they are now reunited.

I am now in process of researching him, but have failed to have found out any reason the medal would have gone so dearly. A Blacksmith is a nice rate to have on the medal, but he wasn't wounded or mentioned in despatches.

He died in 1888 of remittent fever while serving aboard HMS Myrmidon doing survey work on the Northern coast of Australia.

I am a medal collector, that specializes in Royal Navy Long Service & Good conduct medals, but generally earlier in the century.

cheers,

Pick
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 9:22 pm

Hi Pick.
Quote :
"Already had Bunce's Long Service and Good Conduct medal, so they are now reunited."
Any chance of a photo.
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 9:43 pm

planning on it, BUT since forum can't accept pictures not sure of a way to do it...suggestions? there must be a free website that I can put the pictures to, you got a suggestion?
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 9:52 pm

OK figured out mt Avatar, pretty simple, but for the brain dead one has to look for the word Avatar.

So...avatar is Bunce;s pair of medals! Second one is his LSGC, long service good conduct medal awarded in 1881 whilst aboard HMS Asia.

Next challange contact Pete to upload pictures....
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 10:11 pm

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/img]

OK, I am learning! Attached is the engraved edge of Bunce's Zulu medal. This is anti-clockwise! So it is interesting that at 11 o'clock Shah appears before his name, his rate, and then the HMS which in truth belond before the "Shah". I have two medals to Shah, and they are both the same as this, yet medals to Boadicea don't follow this nonmenclature!
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 10:13 pm

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/img]

And his IMPRESSED edge details on the Long Service medal
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 11, 2010 10:15 pm

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/img]

And his pair of medals - my avatar!

All the best,

Pick
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90th

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PostSubject: naval medals   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyMon Apr 12, 2010 12:18 am

hi pick .
Welcome to the forum looking forward to your input. I also have a medal awarded to the " shah " and on
checking mine , I see the format is the same as yours. Strange there is a differance in format between the two ships ,
Have you or are you able to check the format on the other ships naming ?. Hope that makes sense . Idea
cheers 90th.
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyMon Apr 12, 2010 6:29 am

hi
Great pictures Pick, how big is your collection if medals?

thanks joe
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyMon Apr 12, 2010 7:52 am

Am I right in saying his trade was a (Blacksmith)
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyMon Apr 12, 2010 11:21 am

The collection is very large Joe, but earlier in the century. The Zulu medals that I have are not my main focus, just ones that I have accumulated over the years. It was a Zulu medal to HMS Boadicia which came with copies of the man's service papers that really launched me into collecting. The fact that you could see a man's career via the ships that he had served on fascinated me. His name was William Rose, and I am missing his Long Service medal, so if anyone find its please let me know.

Interesting question 90th concerning the naming. I looked at two medals to HMS Himalaya and they are named like Shah. However a medal named to HMS Euphrates was named like the Shah medal, so don't know if all of one ship follows the same pattern, or if it is random.

And yes Johh he was a Blacksmith

cheers,

Pick
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PostSubject: Re: Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptySun Apr 18, 2010 4:18 pm

I bought the LSGC in 1994 and sixteen years later managed to finally pair it up with his Zulu medal. I missed the Zulu once before at auction, when it went for, at the time, a ridiculous price. Not sure why it went so high that time or this time! Not to be out done the second time, when it came up at Bosley’s on 3rd March 2010 I looked at dealer pricing and Liverpool had a similar one for £595 so decided to put in a £600 bid, thinking that there was no way that it would go that high. To my unpleasant surprise it went for exactly £600 which made me think I had been duped! I then got the final bill with commission and a £48 bill for postage. I think I may have just paid a record price for a naval Zulu that has nothing special about it!

I am not as familiar with these mid to late century LSGCs as the earlier WIDES, but I believe Bunce’s service record indicates two significant changes to the award of the LSGC and to the rating system. Bunce entered the Royal Navy 17 June 1870, at the age of 21, having signed a 10 year Continuous Service commitment, so all his time was going to count for pension. He receives his first good conduct badge 1 July 1873, and his second exactly 5 years later in 1878. His conduct is very good, then exemplary (starting in 1875, contrary to DM indicating it was 1876), an expression that was not used earlier in the century - very good being the best one could obtain. This was then abolished in 1884, and Bunce’s papers show the change when he then starts to receive very goods again. So historically Bunce’s career stretches before and after the use of “exemplary” as a rating (1875 through 1884). His third and final good conduct badge was given 1 July 1884, 6 years after the second, but he had taken a year off, so every 5 years for a GCB it would appear. Interestingly, he is recommended for his LSGC medal 20 August 1881, and is “traced” three days later 23 August 1881, so fit into the new temporary category of being able to receive the medal with only 10 years of service and less than three GCBs as long as you had signed on for completion of 20 years. If you quit before reaching 15 years the medal was forfeited back to the Crown. Unusually, after his first 10 year commitment he does not re-sign and goes to shore on 17 June 1880, and waits just over a year before resigning for another 10 years on 30 June 1881. Bunce unfortunately doesn’t make it to pension and is discharged dead 28 December 1888 having suffered from remittent fever.

The following is an interpretation of Bunce's service career. Mid to late century service records are available to download for 3.5 pounds from the National Archives. It is a wonderful way of finding out what an individual did. The papers basically list the ships on which the sailor served, it is left up to the researcher to determine what that the man or ship did. The service papers never list campaign medals, but sometimes cryptically list the award of the Long Service Good Conduct medal (LSGC). Most British medals are named, making it possible to find out what the man did, making it a fascinating and additing hobby which can empty your wallet very quickly!

HMS Trafalgar (110) – Armr’s Crew – 17 June 1870 to 8 June 1872 – 1st rate wooden sailing commanded (from commissioning at Portsmouth until paying off at Portsmouth) by Captain Thomas Bridgeman Lethbridge, seagoing naval cadet training ship.

HMS Hector – Armr’s Crew – 9 June 1872 to 31 December 1872
HMS Hector – Armr’s Crew – 1 January 1873
HMS Hector – Blk’s Crew – 1 October 1873
HMS Hector (18) – Blacksmith – 21 May 1874 to 20 July 1874 – broadside ironclad frigate commanded by Captain Cochran – Coast Guard.

HMS Asia (84) - Blacksmith – 21 July 1874 to 20 September 1874 – 2nd rate wooden sailing vessel used as guard ship at Portsmouth 1858 to 1890.

HMS Malabar (3) – Blacksmith – 21 September 1874 to 17 April 1875 – iron screw troopship commanded by Captain Edward Thomas Nott (until Nott died), then from 30 October 1874 by Captain Edward Kelly.

HMS Asia – Blacksmith – 18 April 1875 to 24 May 1875

HMS Excellent – Blacksmith – 25 May 1875 to 31 March 1876 – paid off
HMS Excellent (104) – Blacksmith – 1 April 1876 to 8 June 1876 – 1st rate wooden sailing vessel commanded by Captain Thomas Brandreth, gunnery ship, Portsmouth

HMS Asia – Blacksmith - 9 June 1876 to 13 August 1876

HMS Shah (26) – Blacksmith – 14 August 1876 to 31 October 1879 – unarmoured iron screw frigate commanded by Captain Richard Bradshaw Cape of Good Hope. Zulu Medal with 1879 clasp. Upon her returning from the Pacific, HMS Shah stopped in at St. Helena and upon hearing if the troubles at the Cape, embarked all available troops (156, or 200 by some accounts) and sailed directly for the Cape. Bradshaw did this under his own authority. HMS Shah had a complement of about 700 men, and landed a Naval Brigade of 16 officers and 378 men. They participated in the battle at Gingindlovu where they suffered two wounded. Four men also died of disease during the campaign.

Note that the HMS is at the end of the rim) and that Shah (missing a quotation mark) is at the beginning on the rim engraving, the naming varies from medal to medal, ship to ship.

The other fascinating piece of history concerning HMS Shah is that she, along with HMS Amethyst, fought an action with the Peruvian Rebel turret ship Huascar. The action lasted close to three hours, and the turret ship was hit between 80 and 90 times. However being heavily armoured sustained little damage. During the action a Whitehead torpedo was fired but was slower than the Huascar so did not catch up with the target. Huascar also attempted to ram the Shah, which was thwarted by the use of a Gatling gun raking the decks of the Huascar. The action was inconclusive and the Huascar retreated. Two days later a “boat action” was devised to torpedo the Huascar. Fortunately the Huascar surrendered to the Peruvian Fleet, and the boat parties recalled to ship. Thomas Bunce did not participate in this boat action.

HMS Asia – Blacksmith – 1 November 1979 to 31 December 1879

HMS St. Vincent (120) – Blacksmith - 1 January 1880 to 17 June 1880 – 1st rate wooden sailing vessel commanded by Commander John Hext, training ship for boys, Portsmouth.

HMS Asia – Blacksmith – 30 June 1881 to 2 October 1882

HMS Constance – Blacksmith – 3 October 1882 to 16 January 1886

HMS Asia – Blacksmith – 17 January 1886 to 18 November 1887

HMS Thalia (6) – Blacksmith – 19 November 1887 to 31 March 1888 – wooden screw corvette commanded (from commissioning until paying off) by Captain John Robert Ebenezer Pattisson, taking new crews out to the Mediterranean and then to Australia HMS Thalia took out officers and crew to man HMS Myrmidon already on the Australian station.

HMS Myrmidon (3) – Blacksmith – 1 April 1888 to 28 December 1888 – Cormorant class gunvessel used as survey ship commanded by Captain Hon. Foley C. P. Vereker – Sydney and Manila. Took part in marine and natural history exploration of the northern and north-western Australian coast, including Darwin, Willis Islets and Osprey Reef, and also in Bass Strait. Myrmidon was sold in 1889 at Hong Kong. Thomas Bunce was discharged dead of remittent fever 28 December 1888, aged 39.
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90th

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PostSubject: shah medal   Bunce Blacksth HMS Shah EmptyMon Apr 19, 2010 1:37 am

hi pick.
I did notice a SHAH medal for sale a month or so ago for 585 quid , I thought about grabbing it and then
forgot about it , so when I looked again it had been sold .
cheers 90th.
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