WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Lieutenant John Chard: What's our strength? Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead: Seven officers including surgeon, commissaries and so on; Adendorff now I suppose; wounded and sick 36, fit for duty 97 and about 40 native levies. Not much of an army for you.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» L Company 24th
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 7:45 pm by Eddie

» Captain of Hussars
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 2:37 pm by Eddie

» David Souter Robertson attached 2/21st
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 2:06 pm by Eddie

» Private McNally's Letter
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 10:35 am by rai

» Ferreira's Horse
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 9:38 am by Eddie

» W J Bourne
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 9:29 am by Eddie

» George Middleton
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 8:46 am by rai

» A Jungle Expedition in Prayagraj, India
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 6:06 am by rai

» Old Historian2
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyToday at 2:30 am by Eddie

» RORKE'S DRIFT HERO
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyYesterday at 11:58 pm by Eddie

»  Corporal E. THOMAS 793 2-24th Foot
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyYesterday at 6:53 pm by harry67

» Forces War Records
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyYesterday at 11:19 am by harry67

» Private 1698 James Bain 91st Regiment
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyYesterday at 9:08 am by gardner1879

» James Hudson.
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyYesterday at 6:27 am by rai

» Mr. John Hinshaw
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 5:18 pm by Kenny

» Charles Frederick Murray MacGregor
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 4:09 pm by Eddie

» Symonds Jermyn d'Arcy Travers
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Francis S Alcock
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 10:48 am by rai

» Captain Carlos A. Rivers - HMS Shah?
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 8:59 am by rai

» Lieutenant-Colonel McWatters
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyWed Nov 30, 2022 3:10 am by Eddie

» Colonel J. F. Caldwell
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyTue Nov 29, 2022 11:28 am by rai

» Major T de la Haye Brotherton. Royal Engineers
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 9:55 pm by Isandula

» Drummer 1899 Albert Thomas Glover 99th Regiment
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 6:06 pm by Albert Glover

» Capts. Dymes and Smythe, 1/1 NNC
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 3:42 pm by Julian Whybra

» number of rounds
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyMon Nov 28, 2022 1:03 pm by free1954

» Did Chelmsford just misinterpret the Reconnaissance information that he had?
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySun Nov 27, 2022 8:13 pm by Tig Van Milcroft

» Recovered weapons from Gingindhlovu and Kambula
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:55 pm by ADMIN

» Ian Knight. November 2022: AZW Battlefield Sites Report
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 12:50 pm by ADMIN

» Company Sergeant Major F. W. Peake, Royal Engineers
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 6:25 am by rai

» "Ex-Sergeant Major Craven" - a Curio.
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 5:54 am by rai

» Sam's a veteran of the Zulu War
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptySat Nov 26, 2022 4:47 am by rai

» 2/24th Deployment January 1879
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyFri Nov 25, 2022 6:02 pm by harry67

» Hidden Ground at Isandlwana
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Nov 24, 2022 5:19 pm by Tig Van Milcroft

» The death of David Jones.
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Nov 24, 2022 2:54 pm by Eddie

» Commissary E. W. H. Webb, C.B.
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Nov 24, 2022 9:26 am by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
Zulu War Chants (Film Zulu)
Top posters
90th
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Frank Allewell
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
littlehand
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
ADMIN
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
1879graves
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Julian Whybra
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
rusteze
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
John Young
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
gardner1879
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Top posting users this month
Eddie
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
rai
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
harry67
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Kenny
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
John Young
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Bill8183
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
gardner1879
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_leftexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Barexactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Bar_right 
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Adding to the Library
Durnford was he capable.5
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
Keywords
martini George Police 24th drift james anstey Prince Isandlwana horse Natal Durnford Woolfryes spalding Roll brown henry Mounted payne Franklin john 2022 Jones Russell smith harford
 

 exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus

Go down 
+3
John
Umbiki
tom
7 posters
AuthorMessage
tom




Posts : 15
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 68

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 12:17 pm

The reason I ask this question is from when Shaka formed the Zulu nation into the fighting force that evolved to what the British Army fought against in 1879, every Zulu king ruled against a background of envy and plots - especially from close family members. Even Shaka was assassinated by his kin.

Far from the myth of the Tyrant King, who would dispense death to any who chose to disobey him, Zulu history is littered with examples of disobedience with impunity. During Cetewayo's rule, several minor chieftains withdrew to their kraals with their impis, rather than answer his call to arms, and escaped punishment. Cetewayo's half-brother, Prince Dabulamanzi kaMapande, led his impis in the attack on Rorke's Drift - in direct contravention of Cetewayo's order forbidding such an action. Had Cetewayo been all-powerful, as was supposed, it would seem that Prince Dabulamanzi kaMapande's fate was sealed - it was not as if he could justify his actions with news of a victory. However, Cetewayo did not put him to death, and indeed Dabulamanzi outlived his half-brother by two years, dying in 1886.

During the course of the Zulu war, apart from Ulundi, it would seem that there had been no overall chain of command from Cetewayo to his army, and as a result there was no real coordination in the Zulu response to the invasion. Had Cetewayo deliberately left decisions to individual Indunas, or had he lost control of his armies?

Was his 'despotic' rule another myth put about by the Dutch settlers and the British to exaggerate the threat posed by the Zulus to justify the siezure of Zulu lands for farming and the Zulus themselves for labour in the gold and diamond mines?
Back to top Go down
Umbiki

Umbiki


Posts : 131
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Gloucester, UK

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 7:14 pm

Tom

Zulu politics are a complex business but, in a nutshell, I think it fair to say that a feature of Cetshwayo's reign WAS to try and restore the authority of the Zulu royal house similar to that which existed in Shaka's time. But in saying that I believe it would be wrong to imagine that the King ruled with an iron fist and was as "despotic" as some would have us believe.

The fact is that by the time Cetshwayo came to power in 1873 the Zulu Grand Council - the ibandla - had long since been established and comprised some powerful people that the King, alone, could not overthrow. In " The Last Zulu King", C T Binns writes, " Now that Cetshwayo was firmly seated upon his throne it became obvious that he was determined to consolidate his position from a military point of view, and in this he was strongly backed by his Great Council, for it must be remembered that without this support he would have been almost powerless. This fact is often overlooked, but it is undoubtedly true that many of his great indunas were as powerful as the feudal barons in early English history. They wielded enormous influence, governing their subjects with a rod of iron ...........". However, Cetshwayo was astute enough to win the confidence of his Council and carry their support. When coming to the throne, the KIng had appointed the much respected and influential Mnyamana kaNgqengele Buthelezi as head of the Council - induna'nkhulu - who subsequently assumed the role of commander in chief of the Zulu army at the time of the British invasion in 1879.

You mentioned Dabulamanzi's failure at Rorke's Drift. C T Binns also writes that, "when news of this assault [at Rorke's Drift] reached Cetshwayo, Dabulamanzi would have been executed for his disobedience had he not been of Royal blood .......and had not other high-ranking officers in the Zulu army pleaded on his behalf".

I hope this is helpful - it is a difficult question to answer in just a few short paragraphs. But help is at hand! It is my understanding that Ian Knight's new book, " Zulu Rising", due to be released shortly, will look in great depth at the Zulu perspective in the story of iSandlwana and RD and will consider both the internal and external politics of the Zulu (on both sides of the Mzinyathi), and how it all came to a head and influenced the events of 22 January 1879. Fascinating stuff! Can't wait!

U
Back to top Go down
John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 60
Location : UK

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 7:40 pm

Well at the wave of his hand, He could have a warrior killed. (Now that's powerfull) Power over life and death.
Back to top Go down
tom




Posts : 15
Join date : 2010-08-15
Age : 68

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 8:34 pm

Thanks for the response, Umbiki. Very informative and surprising. Political complexity is not the first thing that springs to mind when thinking of the Zulu nation. Considering that the equivalent of the baronial system had developed by that time it makes the political development of Britain look positively sluggish. I look forward to that book.

P.S. I've just had this surreal vision of Cetewayo going head-to-head with the Zulu equivalent of Sir Humphrey Appleby! :lol!:
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2594
Join date : 2009-04-24

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 9:02 pm

In 1872 Mpande dies having proclaimed Cetshwayo as the successor and Chief of the Zulu nation.Cetshwayo asserts his new authority by killing thousands of the followers of his half-brother Mboyazi, including the murder of Nomantshali, whose only crime is that she is the mother of Mthonga, a potential rival to the new Zulu King. By so doing, Cetshwayo ensures that his authority is not challenged from within the Zulu nation.
Back to top Go down
littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 54
Location : Down South.

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 10:11 pm

Just out of interest. Cetshwayo kaMpande ceremony was led by Sir Theophilus Shepstone. Idea
Back to top Go down
Umbiki

Umbiki


Posts : 131
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Gloucester, UK

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 11:57 pm

Mpande did indeed die in 1872 but Cetshwayo had been identified as the heir to the throne as far back as 1839 in the company of Mpande and the Boers who took a small piece out of the young Prince's ear to prove the point. In subsequent years Mpande cooled on the idea of Cetshwayo and began to show signs of favouring Mbuyazi. To cut a long story short, Cetshwayo's followers, the uSuthu, saw off and defeated Mbuyazi and his followers, the iziGqoza, at Ndondakusuka on the banks of the Thukela in December 1856. Granted it was a terrible slaughter - chillingly known thereafter as the place, or stream, of bones. Several other princes died along with Mbuyazi that day and it was here that Cetshwayo all but secured succession to the Zulu throne; although Mpande kept him guessing until his demise in 1872.

In 1873 Cetshwayo invited the Natal authorities (in the shape of Shepstone et al) to his coronation in a misguided attempt to bolster his position on the Zulu throne. The traditional Zulu ceremonies had already been completed by the time Shepstone arrived to place, as Ian Knight puts it in his Who's Who in the Zulu War of 1879 Vol II entry, "a theatrical crown on Cetshwayo's head and delivering an ambiguous lecture on good government". In truth, all that the King's invitation had achieved was to effectively open the door for Natal to interfere in Zulu affairs; which would come back to haunt the Zulu when they were shafted by the now infamous Ultimatum in December 1878.

U
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10621
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 66
Location : Melbourne, Australia

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: how powerful was the king of the zulu's   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyFri Aug 20, 2010 5:33 am

hi Tom.
Ceteswayo wasnt present at the battle of Ulundi , he had decided to go before the outcome of the battle was known .
Seems he knew the writing was on the wall Idea .
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Aidan




Posts : 45
Join date : 2010-08-18
Age : 67
Location : Perth Westen Australia

exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus Empty
PostSubject: Re: exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus   exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus EmptyMon Aug 23, 2010 11:27 am

Given this passage from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

it appears he had little control over the army by the time of the advance on Ulundi - most relevant part:


On the same day the first cable was received, Cetshwayo’s representatives again appeared. A previous reply to Chelmsford’s demands had apparently never reached the British force, but now these envoys bore some of what the British commander had demanded – oxen, a promise of guns and gift of elephant tusks. The peace was rejected as the terms had not been fully met and Chelmsford turned the envoys away without accepting the elephant tusks and informed them that the advance would only be delayed one day to allow the Zulus to surrender one regiment of their army. The redcoats were now visible from the Royal Kraal and a dismayed Cetshwayo was desperate to end the hostilities. With the invading enemy in sight, he knew no Zulu regiment would surrender so Cetshwayo sent a further hundred white oxen from his own herd along with Prince Napoleon’s sword, which the Zulu had taken 1 June, 1879 in the skirmish in which the Prince was killed. The Zulu umCijo regiment, guarding the approaches to the White Mfolozi river where the British were camped, refused to let the oxen pass deeming it a useless gesture, saying, as it was impossible to meet all Chelmsford's demands, fighting was inevitable.
Back to top Go down
 
exactly how powerful was the King of the Zulus
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Zulus on a log with four eyes
» Prince Mangosuthu Buthelezi says the headdress worn by his grandfather the King of the Zulus should be returned to South Africa.
» Zulus do not want war
» What were the Zulu's ' on ' at Isandhlwana.
»  Returned by the Zulus ?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: