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Younghusband

Younghusband

Posts : 57
Join date : 2010-08-17
Location : Southampton

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PostSubject: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 4:12 pm

In the film Zulu Dawn one of Durnfords column was turned away for being black by the QM (thus fuelling one of the suspected causes of the defeat due to the slow distribution of ammunition) - however he would have needed ammunition for his carbine and not the standard issue Martini Henri - when Durnford arrived I think I am correct in saying that he did not wait for his ammunition wagons to catch up with him at Isandhlwana (they were travelling from Rorkes Drift) however question is this, by the time Durnford would have needed more ammunition do we know if the wagons had arrived? If so presumably they would have had their own QM distributing the correct ammunition and this issue would not have arisen.
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 7:47 pm

Younghusband. Now that’s a very good question. I did not know Durnford had his own waggon of ammunition making its way to Isandlwana.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2581
Join date : 2009-04-24

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyThu Aug 19, 2010 8:03 pm

:lol!: Impulsive Durnford. Why would he want ammunition? After all he was nicked named (Don’t fire Durnford) :lol!:
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90th

90th

Posts : 10236
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyFri Aug 20, 2010 4:35 am

hi Younghusband .
I think you will find that is one of the main reasons Durnford retired from the donga , he or others had sent people to the camp
in the hope of finding ammunition , but they returned with none as they werent given any or couldnt locate their wagons .
Instances of this happening in the Knight book's if I remember rightly .
cheers 90th.
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2581
Join date : 2009-04-24

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyFri Aug 20, 2010 8:10 am

Younghusband says
Quote :
when Durnford arrived I think I am correct in saying that he did not wait for his ammunition wagons to catch up with him at Isandhlwana

Funny that he did the same with the Rocket Battery. He didn't wait for them to catch up either.
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptyFri Aug 20, 2010 8:24 am

Don't let The film or TWOTS cloud your history!

The reason Durnfords men were denied is that they did not have Martini Carbines, in the first phses of the AZW no-one did, it was only in March when lancers were bought from England did they actually arrive. By Dec 1878 only 18,000 Martini carbines had been produced at Enfield, and these were only just being issues (17th got theirs Nov 1878), prduction did not get nto full swing until 1879 when Enfield turned most of production to carbine manufacture.

The standard carbine issue was the Swinburn Henry, a poor lookalike of the Martini, however cost was the issue, the were purchased by the local Natal Govt from Blakemore of London, King of Durban and a few other private arms dealers, indeed they took the Martini round 577/450, there was a Carbine load available (the Mk3) issued actually before the gun!, it was a smaller round 420 grain, not 480 and had a reduced load 70g RFG2. It looked the same as the rifle apart from bullet length, (they were inerchageable), it was not until 1881 was the paper wrap changed to RED, and the packaging having a red label to denote carbine....I digress.


Durnfords men were armed with the Snider Carbine (.577" boxer cartridge) and possible the Westley Richards Monkey Tail carbine (.450 self consumig paper cartridge), they were denied becuase Bloomfeild and Pullen simply did not have what they wanted, Thes QM's had to carefully ensure they had what they needed, ammo for a gun not used was simply taking up valuable commisariat space.
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http://www.martinihenry.org
Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:
:lol!: Impulsive Durnford. Why would he want ammunition? After all he was nicked named (Don’t fire Durnford) :lol!:

Tell the men of the Uve that Rolling Eyes
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 7:01 pm

Through a medium I suppose.
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barry

barry

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Ammunition supply at Isandhlwana   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 7:44 pm

Hi All,

This debate on ammo supply is probably the crux of the reason for the defeat in the Isandhlwana battle.

Tpr Clarke reports that not only was ammunition not getting through to the lines, but, also, there were not enough screwdrivers to open the ammunition boxes?! Somewhere it is also recorderd that the 24th Regmt QM's were refusing to supply ammo to Colonial regiments !.

Yet, he also reports that on his revisit to the battlesite 10 days later with Maj Black, that large quantitities of rifle ammo was lying unused, "up on the hill".

Thus, not enough, in time, or in the right place. Once again I am reminded of the
Pearl Harbour fiasco.

barry
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:05 pm

Hi

If the 24th ran out of ammo how did they fight 800 yeards back to the camp??

Answer: they volloyed their way with 0.45 boxer rounds

The NC and NMP jumed from their horses and made a stand straight away, there is no mention of them running to get ammo, when they got to the camp they dismounted and started fring straight away.



Cheers
DB14
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barry

barry

Posts : 930
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Ammunition supply at Isandhlwana   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:13 pm



Hi DB,

The very fact that the defending front line had to retreat 800 yards back to the camp was because they were losing the battle, ie the enemy were not being taken down fast enough., ie, ammo was running out. This comes from a person who was involved.

barry
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Drummer Boy 14

Drummer Boy 14

Posts : 1998
Join date : 2011-08-01
Age : 23

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:15 pm

Hi

I am on about the 24th, they had to retire because Durnford was retreating, the flank was exposed + the Right Horn.

There isn't a single report that states the 24th ran out of ammo or where short on the line.

When they reached the camp they where still firing furiously.


Cheers
DB14
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:23 pm

Hello

Sorry for the history of carbines , but the three amaNgwane troops (Zikhali Horses) were issued Swinburne Henry carbines at fort Napier the 27 December 1879, theses three troops face Zulu chest...

Edentale Horse troop was issued Martini-Henrys carbines and fights the Zulu left horn directly under Durnford ...

Hlubi Basotho Troop (the best of the five) that also fights directly under Durnford ...
the Zulu left horn had Snider Carbine and Westley Richards Monkey Tail carbine ...

The Jantje Horse troop remained in Natal was also issued with Martini-Henry carbines ...

Black soldiers of the queen,the natal contingent in the anglo zulu war by P.S.Thompson.

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:34 pm

Dear Barry

The only reason for the defeat of Isandhlwana is not a question of ammunition, Pulleine has deployed his troops on the instructions of Chelmsford , you can imagine the weaknesses of each company at the front , all in inextended order allowed three paces between each man (7 - 1 / 2 ft)

It is to cry, it was the deployment orders of Chelmsford coming straight from the settlement of 1877 for the british infantry...All the rest is literature...The mythology of Isandhlwana...

Cheers

Pascal
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matthew83

matthew83

Posts : 65
Join date : 2011-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:41 pm

I know it's an aside, but thought it would be of some interest.
Mules were notoriously slow and perhaps that is why Durnford left them on his advance to isandlwana.


Anyway, here's the photo, a mule drawn ammunition wagon during the zulu war.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



For KC members, it can be found at the KC collections c57-028.

Cheers

Matt
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Guest



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PostSubject: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:51 pm

The mules were for rocket battery which has so little occupied Durnford
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Guest
Guest



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PostSubject: Carbine ammunition   Carbine ammunition EmptySat Dec 24, 2011 8:54 pm

As against the artillery battery with Pearson was carried by mules, I would like to know how it was arranged
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