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Lord Chelmsford Said .Buller is ‘one of the finest soldiers of the century’, so modest and reticent –that it was difficult to say for what individual deed he had got the Victoria Cross as he had been doing acts worthy of it all along the line
 
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 carbines at Rorke's Drift

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PostSubject: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Jan 04, 2012 8:33 am

Hello

At Rorke's Drift, who were part of units armed with carbines, have you they traded for Martini-Henry rifles for the fight?

Cheers

Pascal
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

Posts : 552
Join date : 2009-10-14
Location : Loughborough

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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptyWed Jan 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Lugg carried a Swinburn Henry Carbine, Martini Henry carbines were not available in any significant quantities in early 1879
This is a swinburn in my collection, Natal Issue from Blakemore of London exactly the same as Luggs , and in the same VX serial number range.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Carbines are good for 600 yards so no reason to change from the weapon they knew
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptyThu Jan 05, 2012 7:05 am

Hello Neil

We need a better gun than a rifle, issue of firepower and close combat.

And the drill for shooting in battle, you will know something or you know someone

who know it?

Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 7:51 am

Hi

Where are they? Experts of R & D?

Cheers

Pascal
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2583
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 1:23 pm

Quote :
We need a better gun than a rifle, issue of firepower and close combat.
Can you expand on this Pascal.
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySat Jan 07, 2012 8:40 pm

good evening

In my opinion the guys at Rorke's Drift from units equipped with carbines have abandoned them to use infantry rifles , except Lugg...

Because for the firepower and melee is better, to be logical ...

I will like to know what think those who are familiar with this battle ...

good night

Pascal
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90th

90th

Posts : 10078
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 64
Location : Melbourne, Australia

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PostSubject: Carbine's at R.Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 4:53 am

Hi Pascal .
I'm fairly certain you didnt have a choice of weapons at R.Drift ! . If you were issued a carbine or rifle that was it ,
you couldnt go and change them like at a shopping store !!. Shocked
cheers 90th. Idea
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 6:53 am

Hi

But by taking the Rifle of those who were too sick to fight, there was the possibility of exchanging a carbine to a rifle, right?

Cheers

Pascal
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90th

90th

Posts : 10078
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PostSubject: Carbine's at R.Drift.   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 8:48 am

Hi Pascal .
I doubt it very much . Suspect .
cheers 90th
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 9:34 am

Anyway, we will never know the truth, as on almost everything else, but given the mass of unused rifles, that's what I would have done at the onset of 500.600, or 700 inDluyengwe ...

Cheers

Pascal
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Neil Aspinshaw

Neil Aspinshaw

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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 1:24 pm

At less than 200 yards there is no perceivable performance difference between rifle and carbine, especially if firing Mk3 rifle ammo. Recoil is greater, but thats it.
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barry

barry

Posts : 921
Join date : 2011-10-21
Location : Algoa Bay

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PostSubject: Carbines at Rorke's drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 4:00 pm



Hi Pascal,

Neil is correct, the difference in the terminal muzzel velocity of the two cartridges would have been minimal, both were quite adequate to do more than the damage required to take the enemy out. Howvever, the carbine with it's shorter barrel and thus overall length was much easier and quicker, because of it's shortness, to traverse quickly ( shorter traversing arc) . Thus, in theory at close ranges experienced troops should have been able to fire of more shots quickly and accurately than those equipped with the MH.
The counterpoint to this, and the one fact that earned the MH its battle honours in that action was that armed witha a MH with its bayonet fitted, the defending troopers were enabled to bayonet the Zulu long before they could get up close and personal to use their short stabbing spears. The reports go that many Zulus at RD were shot at close range through the neck, and before a reload could be done with the MH, the next enemy presented at the parapet and the bayonet was very effectively used.
Because much of this action was conducted at very close ranges, many troopers also pulled out their pistols, as this was a QF solution, and blazed away (cf : my earlier post on Trooper Hunter NMP) to very good effect. The results speak for themselves.
To my knowledge there were very few carbines at RD, only the NMP troopers there had them.
As an aside , during ther night phase of the attack on th RD garrison, the thatch on a roof was set a blaze, and the rising thermals from the roof fire took burning bits of grass quite high in the sky and in so doing illuminated the night sky and the enemy lurking downwind in the darness where they thought they were safe. Now the snipers deployed into the tower of stacked mielie bags then got to work and sent those heavy 480gr MH slugs far downwind, with great effect , into a very demorailzed enemy.

barry
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 4:06 pm

Hi Barry , Neil and all others...

And for units equipped with carbines, orders for the shooting are the same as in the infantry?

The commands "front rank, present...fire!" were not adopted by the British infantry until approx a year after the zulu war.

The historically accurate commands for a volleys fire would have been ?:

"at 100 yards, ready...present!"

The yardage would be adjusted as needed by the section leader.

Each soldier would then present his rifle and count silently to himself for a count of three.

He would then discharge his weapon without any command to fire.

The British adopted a "fire" command soon after the onset of the Zulu war, whereby the section leader had final authority as to whether or not to release the volley, depending on if there was still a target present.

And for a independent fire?
The commands is ?
Only "independent fire !"

Independent fire could be twice as lethal as volley fire but use up three times as much ammunition.( 12 rpm with Independent fire and 4 rpm with volley fire )

Ex: With a independent fire, a soldier uses 100 rounds in 8 minutes and 20 seconds and affects four Zulu warriors.

Ex: With a volley fire a soldier uses 33 cartridges in 8 minutes and 20 seconds and affects two Zulu warriors.

4% of hits for the Independent fire and 6 % for the volley fire .

Apart from the first shooting of the Cavaye company at Isandhlwana , at 800 yards in the Zulu right horn,the infantry fire starts at 400 yards.

And for units equipped with carbines ?


Cheers

Pascal
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 4:25 pm

Hey, hey Gary ,new information !

So if in independent fire lights can be 12 minutes with a MH ,with a carbine shots can be drawn even faster?

How?

But melee to one against one, African warrior is not the weight against a British soldier well trained in combat with the bayonet as his shield does not protect it of the British Steel and its arms are too short.

Without a rifle or a musket with bayonet, such as a policeman with his carbine...

The African triumph ?

Cheers

Pascal
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptySun Jan 08, 2012 6:13 pm

I'm sure this has been covered before.
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PostSubject: Re: carbines at Rorke's Drift   carbines   at Rorke's Drift EmptyMon Jan 09, 2012 7:43 am


Back issues of the ancients topics, that's great, it helps to see it a fresh look to have a new approach for new members to provide information at times unknown ...

And players who come on this forum without being registered, may also recover, many ideas ...

Cheers

Pascal
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