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 Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,

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ciscokid
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sas1

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyThu Sep 02, 2010 9:22 pm

Doe's anyone know who the Newspaper correspondent was they are referring to.


SIR WILFRID LAWSON said, that as the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War was now in his place, he would ask him the Question which stood first upon the Notice Paper—namely, Whether newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, otherwise than in self-defence; and, whether the attempt to shoot a fugitive Zulu scout, which the special correspondent of the "Standard" records that he himself made, as may be seen in the "Standard" of July 17th, is a matter which calls for any notice from the War Office?


COLONEL STANLEY Sir, in reply, I beg to say that I conceive any officer who permitted a newspaper correspondent to take an active part against the enemy would act in a manner which I should characterize as unjustifiable. In reply to the second part of the Question, I have to say that I have looked at the paragraph referred to, and find that the corespondent states that he twice attempted to fire at a Zulu, but in neither case did his rifle go off; and it does not appear that he either hurt the Zulu, or even frightened him. If it were a general practice at the seat of war for persons not connected with the Service, and not on duty, to take an active part against the enemy, I should consider it my duty to address some communication to the General Officer; but as there is no evidence of the existence of the practice beyond that contained in the letters of the correspondent to whom attention has been drawn I do not intend to notice the matter further.



Source: HC Deb 29 July 1879 vol 248 c1534 1534
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ciscokid




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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyThu Sep 02, 2010 9:37 pm

Norris Newman?

I've just started reading his book - give me a few more weeks and I'll tell you if it's in there... :-)
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90th

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: newspaper correspondants   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 3:01 am

hi ciscokid.
You are correct with Norris Newman and his book is a good read as well . The following from page 138 ' In Zululand With
The British Throughout The War Of 1879 ' This passage concerns the battle of Gingindlovu , N. Newman goes on to say.
" During this time I and a friend named Palmer , who had accompanied the expedition as a conductor , with a lot of wagons , had each got a rifle and were steadily taking pot shots , at any native who made himself visible , from the top of a wagon , which
gave us a great advantage . Palmer who is a crack shot having been a large game hunter in the interior for years brought
several to ground . One shot in particular was a great success, about a hundred yds off - straight in front of us , three zulus
had managed to gain shelter of a thick bush , whose roots formed an impenetrable barrier to even our hot fire , and it was from this bush that the shot was fired which killed poor Johnson . His death was quickly avenged , as we both arranged to wait quietly until
the zulus fired again , and then taking good aim we fired together as two of them raised themselves on their knees to get a fair aim .
The one aimed at by Palmer sprung up high in the air , with outstretched arms , and fell backwards dead , shot clean through the
forehead , as we found out afterwards . The one I aimed at was only wounded , but in a little while both he and the third zulu were
killed by the 99th . After the battle the three were found close together , and Palmer and I took and divided the trophies of war ,
including their native dress ,arms and accoutrements , and we keep them yet , as most prized and hardly won spoils ". He goes
on to say he left his post and took a stroll around to see what was hapening .
cheers 90th.


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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 8:32 am

Do forum members think "Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa should have been permitted to take an active part against the enemy"

I think yes. As they were on the front line, and i'm sure the Zulu's would have had no problem with killing a Newspaper correspondent.
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Frank Allewell

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 2:11 pm

CTSG
I fully agree, personally I wouldnt have a problem taking pot shots at a newspaper correspondant.

Regards
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90th

90th


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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: newspaper correspondants   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 3:33 pm

hi ctsg / springbok.
Totally agree . Idea
Zulu's werent keen on taking prisoners , one in all in so to speak . :) .
cheers 90th.
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ciscokid




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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyFri Sep 03, 2010 5:26 pm

90th - cheers mate, I haven't got that far yet... :-)

I remember reading somewhere that a Zulu reported at Isandlawana he entered a tent and someone was calmly writing, he asked what he was doing (in zulu) and this guy replied that he was writing a report for his people, the Zulu then left him be, he later found out that his commander had been killed, so he went back and killed this guy - I assume a reporter.?

On the back of my Norris Newman book it mentions "Campaiging in Zululand" W.E. Montague and ZULU:1879 DCF Moodie, has anyone read either of these two?

thanks
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90th

90th


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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: newspaper correspondants   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 1:15 am

hi ciscokid.
I have heard that story about the zulu going into the tent and the person writing in some instances was named
as LT. COL Pulleine , dont know how much credence I place on that story scratch . I have the Montague book
and just finished reading it for the second time !. Some good anecdotes and interesting reading , if you are going
to buy it drop me a line via the pm service and I will try to find you an inexpensive copy . The Moodie Book I dont
own , but by reports its well worth having , If I'm not mistaken our forum member Springbok may have a copy ?.
hope this helps .
Cheers 90th.
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ciscokid




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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 7:32 am

Hi 90th, here you go mate. Seems like matey was a reporter after all.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Biyela tells me that night how his grandfather's warriors, having overrun the main British camp, dashed from tent to tent mopping up the stragglers - the cooks and the messengers and the drummer boys - until they crashed into one tent to find a newspaper correspondent sitting at his campaign table, penning his report.

"Just like you are now," he says to me, and his acolytes all laugh until Biyela raises his hand for silence.

"They said to him, 'Hau! What are you doing in here, sitting at a table? Why aren't you out there fighting?' And this man, he was a local white who could speak some Zulu, he said, 'I am writing a report on the battle, for my people.'

"'Oh,' they said, 'all right.' And they left him.

"But soon afterward, when they heard that my grandfather Nkosani had been shot, they ran back to the tent and said to the journalist there, 'Now that our induna [leader] has been killed, there is no point in making a report anymore,' and with that they killed him."

Biyela's men nod. I keep writing.


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Frank Allewell

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 7:36 am

Indeed I do. Prized position in my collection. There was a reprint done in the mid 90,s. Try and get a copy there is some really important source material.
All of the correspondents books contain first hand observations and interviews, they were so widely spread that virtually the whole war was covered.

Regards
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ciscokid




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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 7:44 am

Fantastic - Thanks,

Cheers 90th, I see that there pretty cheap on amazon.

I know Sawubona told me that Newman's book is very very expensive in the USA, or was a year or so ago.

Thanks
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90th

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: newspaper correspondants   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 10:52 am

hi cisco .
Amazon or Abe is the way to go , Newmans book can be expensive , but I was lucky to snag a cheapish copy.
Another decent book is ... ' The War Correspondents - The Anglo Zulu War by Laband and Knight ,
well worth having all the reporters are represented .
cheers 90th.
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Umbiki

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Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySat Sep 04, 2010 12:58 pm

Hi Ciscokid

I have a paperback called "Moodie's Zulu War" that was published in Cape Town in 1988 with an introduction by the eminent Professor, John Laband.

By way of background, Duncan Campbell Francis Moodie (born in the Cape in 1838) is an interesting character, said to be fluent in isiZulu and variously described as, "Journalist, poet, historian, man of linguistic and athletic abilities, but also exhibitionist, adventurer and nomad". He left South Africa to live in Australia for a while but then returned and in 1879 published, "The History of the Battles and Adventures of The British, The Boers and The Zulus in Southern Africa (from 1495 - 1879)" (I assume this to be the one owned and so highly prized by Springbok9 - and rightfully so.) The book I have, "Moodie's Zulu War" is essentially the Zulu War bit lifted from the former.

By his own admission, Moodie only visited Zululand twice - albeit for several months at a time - once with Shepstone on a visit to King Mpande (1861 I think) and then on a separate hunting trip. His book is therefore not about his journalistic experience of the AZW but rather a collection of eye witness accounts as reported in the Press of the day and woven together by Moodie's flowerey Victorian prose. It can be quite an irritating read at times; Moodie rarely names sources but rather refers to, " A Cape reporter says", or " through eye witnesses says a Natal newspaper", etc. etc. As a consequence, some (but by no means all) of the material is third hand so needs to be treated with a degree of caution. However, it is all too easy to judge work such as this with the benefit of hindsight. Published in 1879 it was "hot off the press" in terms of the AZW and is, in my view, a fascinating contemporary account of how the war was regarded and reported and should be read in those terms.

You get a few poems thrown in as well, including a 3 page one by Moodie himself on "Isandhlwana" ;

"Oh! hearts of British mothers! Harrowing scene!
Where late the dews impearled th' enamelled green
The death-shriek sounds, as rush the Zulu host
Upon the forces of th' unlaagered post.
"

Moodie's Zulu War DCF Moodie: N& S Press Cape Town 1988 (ISBN 0 620 11853 9 paperback - 0 620 13072 5 hardback).

Some iiiustrations too.

Hope this is helpful.

U


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Frank Allewell

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Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 8:31 am

The full book title is (believe it or not) 'The History of the Battles and Adventures of The British, The Boers and the Zulus in Southern Africa including every particular of the Zulu War of 1879' And just for good measure the last 2 chapters are about South Australia. Why he did that I have no idea. He did of coursed spend time in Australia, the book was published in Australia.
As Umbiki says at times its ponderous but the fact that it was written and published so soon after the battle is fascinating.
That together with Noggs and Emery represent a massive amount of source material.

Regards from a very woefull springbok after seeing his beloved team destroyed yet again by Australia.
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90th

90th


Posts : 10882
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: newspaper correspondants   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 8:38 am

hi springbok.
Seriously mate , you would think you would get used to it :lol!: Rolling Eyes .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Umbiki

Umbiki


Posts : 131
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Gloucester, UK

Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 9:24 am

Hi Springbok

You are not alone for Umbiki is woeful too - first game of the season and my beloved Gloucester lose away at the newly promoted Exeter Chiefs - scored two tries to one but absolutely nothing went between the posts! Groaaaaan! The irony in respect of this thread is that the newspaper correspondents will have a field day!

Anyway, back to the war ..........

U
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptySun Sep 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Same as in 1879. Won the first half and lost the game to the Brits in the second half.
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Umbiki

Umbiki


Posts : 131
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Gloucester, UK

Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, Empty
PostSubject: Re: Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy,   Newspaper correspondents at the seat of war in South Africa are permitted to take an active part against the enemy, EmptyMon Sep 06, 2010 3:45 pm

:lol!:
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