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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 8:24 am

At last my copy arrived. After a quick glance through on the weekend and an hour or so interupted reading last night
( "WILL YOU TURN OUT THE BL***Y LIGHTS AND GO TO SLEEP"). That from she who must be obeyed.
My forecast is its set to become the modern day Washing of The Spears. Its been critisised for having nothing new, there I beg to disagree there are lots of tidbits of information. For instance I never knew that Durnford was at Cetswayos 'coronation'. He evidently went along with Shepstone, therefore he should be in that rather blurry photo of the coronation with Cetswayo wearing his tinsel crown.
The books not in the same category as Mike Snooks, that was very focused on the battle, Ian Knights followed the same sort of line as TWOTS, going back to Senzakakonas time. Its going to be a must for any reader/student of the AZW.
Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 10:12 am

I thought everyone knew Durnford was at Cetshwayo's Coronation. Durnford was very good friends with the zulus.

"Durnford, now in Pietermaritzburg, found a warm friendship which, after years of loneliness, gave him much joy and comfort throughout the remaining few years of his life, but which could never blossom forth into love and ultimate happiness as long as Frances Catherine was alive. (She outlived both Durnford and Frances Ellen, who had already symptoms of the tuberculosis which was to cause her premature death in 1887). Durnford and the Colensos were so discreet about this friendship 'that no inkling of it ever leaked out, and there was never a breath of suspicion'. This was just as well in a community as small as Pietermaritzburg, or even Natal, where gossip thrived and such a 'scandal' would have been disastrous to Durnford's military career.
Durnford had barely two months to settle down in Pietermaritzburg when he was directed to accompany Mr Theophilus Shepstone and Capt Boyes, 75th Regiment, on a journey to Zululand to attend the coronation of Cetshwayo. The coronation itself, although open to criticism from a number of points of view, was generally speaking a grand affair and Durnford described the ceremony itself as being altogether 'a scene not to be missed'


Source: Military History Journal - Vol 6 No 5
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 10:21 am

CTSG
Everyone except me.
Can he be picked out in the Coronation photo?

Regards
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 10:28 am

Quote :
Can he be picked out in the Coronation photo?

Now that is a very good question. ?????????
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joe

joe

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 4:38 pm

I can remember seeing the picture somewhere before, but cant remember where, although I do seem to remember being able to pick out Durnford, not very clear though

Does anyone have a copy of the picture of knows where to find one?

thanks joe
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 8:56 pm

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In most books i have read about the Zulu war it always appears to be based on accounts by the same Zulu's

Mehlokazulu KaSihayo, Matshana KaMondise. (It really doe’s appear that these two were the only Zulu's who appear to have given accounts of the Zulu War)

Durnford and Harford. Probably the most wrote about soldiers of the Zulu War !!!

What is Zulu Oral history? Don’t tell me its based on accounts handed down verbally from generation to generation. This is hearsay evidence and cannot be taken as fact. This type of information can only be based on weather the author is telling the truth, which is down to the readers discretion.

New Archaeological evidence. I’m fairly certain we would have heard about any new Archaeological digs if they had recently occurred on the Zulu War Battlefields; of course we could be talking about the information that was included in the Secrets of the Dead Documentary.


I could be wrong and very happy to be corrected. Idea And if i'm am wrong (I will buy the book) Love new material......
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: zulu rising    ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 1:52 am

hi ctsg.
It may be of interest to you to read the positive feedback from the book by those on the RDVC Forum , My copy is on the way
and looking forward to it Idea .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 7:41 am

Im half way through the book. Its absorbing.
Interms of oral history. Not having scribes, the only way history could be recorded was by passing down the generations. In South Africa this is fact. The Zulu, Xhosa etc are renowned for their ability to commit vast amounts to memory.
CTSG you have a point in that the man who puts it onto paper could be biased in the way he does that. In fact if you read carefully Mitford or any of the earlier chronicles, words are used that no Zulu would know.
In Zulu Rising Ian Knight has accessed this oral history from living family members, I dont think there is any of his interpretation of that history, he is merely reporting it. To a great degree that is what is so compelling about his naratives.
Buy the book, I said earlier in the thread, this will replace TWOTS as the definative book.

Regards
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Umbiki

Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 1:36 pm

CTSG

You asked, " [i]What is Zulu Oral history? Don’t tell me its based on accounts handed down verbally from generation to generation. This is hearsay evidence and cannot be taken as fact. "[/i] .

Well, handed down by generation to generation is exactly how it works, not only in Africa but in other cultures too, the aborigines of Australia, the North American indians etc. etc. A very good example of how Zulu oral history can work is, paradoxically, written down in Abantu Abanyama Lapa Bavela Ngakona. (The Black People and Whence They Came) by Magema M Fuze; published in 1922 in isiZulu and a first by a Zulu author.

But back to Zulu Rising. You will no doubt wish to compare it with Mike Snook's HCMDB but in my view this would be a mistake; the two books are very different. HCMDB is a military dissection and soldier's eye view of the battle of Isandlwana - and a good one at that - by a member of the military. But I am sure I have read somewhere (perhaps in the book itself?) that Mike Snook himself does not necessarily consider himself an historian. Rising is written by an historian who has walked the length and breadth of Zululand and gathered oral evidence from the Zulu over the past thirty years. It has much new material, particularly as regards the historical frontier tensions between the various Zulu factions but there is lots more besides.

But all that is not to say that HCMDB and Rising are incompatible. Indeed, they are both equally valid and important works in this field. For example, it is difficult to imagine how HCMDB can be surpassed in terms of a military analysis of the battle and it will no doubt be the standard for all those who have an interest in picking over the tactical and military minutia of the events that day. But equally, I agree with Springbok9, Rising looks set to become the overall historical standard for the events leading up to an including those of 22 January 1879. Certainly, I do not see how it can afford not to be taken into account in any future and well informed debates on the topic. In that respect I consider it a "must read" ; but you pays your money and makes your choice ...............

U
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 3:02 pm

A number of years back I had the great, and I do mean great, honour to meet Creda Mutwa. I spent quite some time in his company taking about the history of Africa. This mans mind was frightening, he went back generations reciting family history. This man isnt in the same popularist league as Nelson Mandela, he is however every bit as revered. My point being that I would believe implicitly every thing he told me, including his stories of two hundred years ago, passed down through the generations.
As a parting gift he gave me a copy of his 'Indaba my Children' and signed it............ a treasured possesion indeed.

Regards
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Umbiki

Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 3:12 pm

Hi Springbok9

Fantastic story! What an experience for you. I have his "Zulu Shaman" book (not signed though, unfortunately!). An amazing man. I love all that sort of stuff.

I do think Zulu oral history is too easily dismissed sometimes - almost to the point of being disrespectful.

U
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 9:07 pm

Umbiki
Quote :
I do think Zulu oral history is too easily dismissed sometimes - almost to the point of being disrespectful.

And your point being ??? scratch

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24th

24th

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 10:00 pm

He is trying to say, that people only want to believe what the British say. Idea
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John

John

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 11:17 pm

The Title "Zulu Rising" What is this suggesting. Some kind of rebellion.
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ADMIN

ADMIN

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyWed Sep 15, 2010 11:55 pm

Must say I’m somewhat disappointed at the comments made about Ian Knights new book Zulu Rising. (Especially by those that don't own the book)

I have been browsing through some of the posts, many sighting the work of Ian Knight as the source. I don’t have this book, but I can guess that much of what is written in this book is the same, but its the new material that should captivate the reader, Ian spends most of his life researching which enables him to write new books, he has to write what he has already written in order for the new martial to make sense. At the end of the day it’s up to the individual as to weather he or she buys the book, the chances are they won’t be disappointed. I will probably buy the book, based on the fact that it contains Zulu eyewitness accounts, which you very rarely find. I don’t write book reviews, because I like to formulate my own opinion, that’s why I ended up creating this forum. Ian has spent nearly all of his working life researching the Zulu war and I doubt very much if Ian is fazed by the negative reviews normally written by those who have never wrote a book . Don’t get me wrong you are all entitled to your opinion and I respect that, the above is my opinion.

Here’s some food for thought.
If Ian’s father hadn’t taken him to see the film Zulu. The History of the Zulu War would have been forgotten along time ago. Idea
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impi

impi

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 12:04 am

I could be wrong. But maybe people are just fed up with paying money for the same material. scratch
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 7:18 am

Imp i
Your probably right, to a degree. There are a hang of a lot of books around that dont contribute to the debate, merely to the bank account of the author. But every so often a gem pops up, Zulu Rising is such a book. I finished reaading it last evening, its now going on the shelf for a week or so then I shall read it again. Its that good.
There are a lot of new slants on various issues and a lot of info that has been correctly coralated. The path of Adendorf, poits of proof that he was at RD through the fight, personal vignets on some of the players.
Do you know who 'Brikkie' was for instance, I didnt.
All in all My best purchases of the year would be Zulu Rising, How can man die better and Zulu Victory, the one I will reach for when ever a question pops up will be Zulu Rising.
Pete
I support your view point however a famous man once said " I will fight to the death to preserve a mans right to disagree".
If we all agreed life would be so boring. Wink

Regards
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: zulu rising    ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 7:41 am

hi springbok.
Did you manage to snag ' Harford's Journal ' ?. I am still waiting for my copies of ' Zulu Rising ' and on many recommendations
from Forum members ' How Can Men Die Better ' . Looking forward to them both . Will start ' Isandlwana Battlepiece ' by Coupland
has anyone read this before ?. Idea .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 7:58 am

Hi 90th
No I was outbid. Im sure another one will pop up at some stage. What I have just managed to get is a 1st edition of Sir Redvers H Buller.VC by Walter Jerrold. Printed in 1900. Found it at a flea market and after a lot of bargaining got the price down from the equivalent of a pound to 50p ! Dont have a clue what the real value is but it has to be more than 50p.

Regards
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Umbiki

Umbiki

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 11:26 am

CTSG

A few posts back now but you asked "my point being?".

My point is that Zulu oral evidence is as valid as any Brit or Colonial oral evidence and not to consider it as such is, in my opinion, disrespectful to the Zulu. I happen to believe we can learn a lot from Zulu sources and Zulu Rising is a prime exponent of this in my view.

U
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 10:24 pm

I have a Zulu friend, whose ancestor fought in the Zulu War of 1879; He was in the Undi Corps. After the Battle of Isandlwana, he remained behind and took a drink from a bottle, which didn’t taste to good, but after the battle there was a great thirst and the Zulu’s warriors drank just about anything they could find. It turns out his ancestor and drank some concoction from the veterinary supplies, after a while he began to feel quite ill so laid down to rest, sometime later he arose to find himself very alone, and standing before him was a long line of British Soldiers but no ordinary soldiers, these soldiers bear the wounds inflicted on the soldiers hours before. What seemed to be a lifetime of him staring at them and them staring at him, they one by one disappeared before his very eyes. He rose to his feet to run, but just before he did, one of the soldiers spoke one word. “Why” In a great hurry he made of, only to see another British army walking towards him, thinking the sprit of the soldiers had returned, he looked for somewhere to hide, the nearest thing to him was a dead artillery horse, he slit open the stomach of this beast pulled out the intestines, and climbed inside, where he remained for the rest of the night and all around him were British soldiers, they left in the morning making their way to Rorkes Drift. He left as soon as the soldiers were out of sight, his story is still remembered today.
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old historian2

old historian2

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyThu Sep 16, 2010 11:01 pm

Quote :
What seemed to be a lifetime of him staring at them and them staring at him, they one by one disappeared before his very eyes.

Great story CTSG. I do recall reading somewhere about the Zulu's drinking from the veterinary supplies.


" I will fight to the death to preserve a mans right to buy and book or not buy a book".
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: Sir Redvers H Buller by Walter Jarrod   ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 4:19 am

hi Springbok.
Thought you may enjoy this .........

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cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 7:02 am

Wow.
So my R5.00 ( 50p ) was well spent, and there I was worried that he was ripping me of. :lol!:
Have to go back again this sunday and see what else I can find.

Thanks 90th
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: zulu rising    ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 7:33 am

hi springbok .
Hopefully he has another copy :lol: . I would most certainly be heading back , who knows what little gems he may offer Shocked .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 8:13 am

:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:
CTSG
:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Posts : 2581
Join date : 2009-04-24

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 11:32 am

Don't know what you mean!!!!. This is genuine "Zulu Oral history" Idea
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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

Posts : 7770
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 74
Location : Cape Town South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptyFri Sep 17, 2010 12:23 pm

CTSG
That was so cool, just a pity that we werent at the beginning of April.
Nice one.

Regards
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littlehand

littlehand

Posts : 7077
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 52
Location : Down South.

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptySat Sep 18, 2010 11:00 am

CTSG. What a small world, I have a Zulu friend whose ancestor was in the artillery horse next door. Wink
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ADMIN

ADMIN

Posts : 4206
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 62
Location : KENT

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PostSubject: Re: ZULU RISING   ZULU RISING EmptySat Sep 18, 2010 12:12 pm

Can we stay on topic gent's.. Idea
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John

John

Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 58
Location : UK

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PostSubject: Ian Knight gives full focus to the Zulu experience. Based on new research, including unpublished material,    ZULU RISING EmptySat Dec 04, 2010 6:39 pm

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