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 Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?

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datamarine




Posts : 5
Join date : 2010-10-02

Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 1:42 pm

I wonder if anyone might have the medal roll and would be so kind as to look to see whether John Newman appears?

He was at one time in the Marines, on HMS Industry, HMS Flora and HMS Euphrates, but I understand no men from those ships took part in the Zulu war. However, he then says that he volunteered for service at the outbreak of the war and was attached to the signalling staff, present when the heliograph was first used in the siege of Fort Eckowa. He was then attached to the 13th Duke of Cornwalls Regiment and was awarded a Zulu medal. He was discharged by purchase in October 1879. I am unclear whether this Zulu medal would have been via the Marines, Naval Brigade or Army.

I would appreciate it very much if anyone was able to help me out or offer any advice.

Kindest regards to all and thank you in advance.
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1879graves

1879graves


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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 1:57 pm

Hi datamarine

Welcome to the forum.

Having looked on the Medal Roll, this is what I have found

J.Newman is listed under HMS Euphrates, Royal Marines, Private.

He was entitled the the Zulu War Medal but with no date clasp.

I do not know how the medal would have been inscribed but I would guess at Royal Marines.

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datamarine




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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 2:34 pm

Hello 1879graves

Wow, Can't believe I got a reply so quickly. Thank you so much for that, I am delighted! Do you happen to know if there is any way of finding out what part he actually played in the action?

Kindest regards and thank you again!
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 2:39 pm

Hi datamarine

Our Navy man Petty Officer Tom might be able to help out with this one when he reads the above.
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littlehand

littlehand


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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 5:08 pm

Welcome to the forum. I not sure if this is the same John Newman. But there was a discussion some time ago see link below. Newman in the discussion meets the criteria of you gent. I sure you will find this an interesting read regardless.. But let hope it is your chap.

http://1879zuluwar.forumotion.com/general-discussion-area-f6/who-is-butler-in-the-zulu-war-t918.htm?highlight=butler

" My name is John Newman and I was born at Great Bridge in the county of Staffordshire, England, on the 20th day of June, 1858. My parents were the proprie- tors of the 'Boat's Inn,' a well-known tavern in that locality. At the age of fourteen I was apprenticed as an iron- worker in the ' Eagle Iron Works,' located in that county. Nothing unusual occurred until I was seventeen years of age, with the exception that I had a most insatiable desire for leaving home, resulting on two occasions in my running away. I wanted to go to sea. On both occasions, however, I was greatly humiliated by being brought back ignominiously to my home.
" At the age of seventeen I again ran away, making my way to Liverpool, where I joined the Royal Navy, my term of enlistment being twelve years. I was sent to Devonport, where, after preliminary instructions, in August, 1877, I was drafted to Her Majesty's ship Industry, commanded by Captain Dyer."
Newman then recites the visit of the ship to Zanzibar, where they met Mr. Stanley for the purpose of conveying him to the west coast of Africa. On the voyage the great explorer entertained the captain
and seamen with lectures and incidents
connected with his trip " Through Darkest
Africa."
On the return from that voyage Newman was transferred to Her Majesty's ship Flora, then guardship of the West African
station. He continued with that vessel until the outbreak of the Zulu war, in the latter part of 1878. At this point he says :
"At the commencement of hostilities I volunteered for service and was detailed with the signalling staff, subsequently join- ing the column sent to relieve Col. Pearson, who was besieged in Fort Eckowa. It may be interesting at this time to say that this was the first occasion in the British war- fare that heliographing was used. It was suggested by a Corporal of the Royal Engineers to try flashing. A small looking- glass was obtained and after several hours' arduous labour we succeeded by the use of Morse's code in communicating with the besieged force. A simultaneous attack was made, resulting in the signal defeat of the enemy. I was afterwards attached to the Thirteenth regiment—Duke of Cornwall's. We finally joined the main body under General Clemensford, and I remained with him until after the defeat of Cetawayo. I was awarded a Zulu medal by the Com- mission of Admiralty for the service per- formed during that war. I was sent home on the troop ship Orontes, and on my arrival was honorably discharged, having served a little over five years. To the best of my recollection this was about August, 1880. Having a very good discharge, I obtained a position in the Warwickshire County Constabulary, but eight months of the ordinary humdrum life of a country constable satisfied my ambition in that direction. I requested the chief to dispense with my services, which he did—and when, shortly after, the Egyptian war broke out I enlisted in the Ninety-second regiment of Gordon Highlanders. This was commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart, V.C., C. B. We were sent to Aberdeen, Scotland, and shortly after transferred to the First Bat- talion Gordon Highlanders. Lieutenant- Colonel Hammill, C. B., in command. At the end of a few days we were ordered to Egypt, arriving at Alexandria two days after the bombardment. Our force was landed and at once took possession of the railway station, being under the orders at that time of General Alison. A few days later we left for Ramiah to reinforce the Guards Brigade under General Graham. At that place I witnessed a remarkable trait in General Graham's character. The Gordon Highlanders and First Squadron of the Nineteenth Hussars and two guns of
the Royal Artillery were ordered to deploy in front of an entrenched camp held by the Egyptians. We were out of rifle range but well within range of their heavy guns, consequently some of their shells came unpleasantly near us. A young Lieutenant, probably his first time in action, was ob- served by the General to stoop his head. General Graham at once ordered the offender off the field, saying such an ex- ample from an English officer would not
and should not be tolerated.


http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3178031
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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySat Oct 02, 2010 5:51 pm

littlehand,

Great post! I was going to ask 'datamarine' to give the source of his information, Looks like you had already found it.

It seems our Mr. Newman, or Mr. Butler, or whomever is fairly knowledgeable about the Zulu War. HMS Industry was at Simon's Bay during the Zulu War, but was in dock for repairs. HMS Flora was the guardship at Simon's Bay. Two officers volunteered and were seconded to HMS Boadicea and served with the naval brigade, but none of its enlisted men. HMS Euphrates was involved but only in bringing reinforcements from England. None of her men served ashore.

So are we back to the question "Who is Butler in the Zulu War?"

Petty Officer Tom
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datamarine




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PostSubject: Does John Newman Appear   Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 1:05 pm

Hi Littlehand and Petty Officer Tom

Many thanks for the welcome and for the very full and helpful replies. It was good to know the finer points of what those ships were doing in the vicinity at the time. I'm sure this is my John Newman. I guessed that some of what he claimed would prove to be untrue, but equally I am sure that some of it is spot on, give or take a mis-remembered date here or there, and confusing one ship with another.. just minor points really, given that 20 years had elapsed. I have now got to track him through the records to see if he really was granted the Egypt medal.

Many many thanks for your generous help. I'm not holding my breath!

Cheers

Datamarine
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datamarine




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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 1:10 pm

Sorry, should have asked - I see 19 marines received medals from the Euphrates. What were the criteria for receiving a medal -- just being there? No requirement to see actual action at all? Would I be wrong to assume that 19 was the whole Marine contingent on board Euphrates? And - I apologise if it is a silly question, but if they weren't going to see action, were they sent there 'just incase?' I'm afraid I don't know much about the whole process, so hope you can just bear with me! Would be very grateful for any help.

Thank you in advance again!

Datamarine
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1879graves

1879graves


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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 1:31 pm

Hi Petty Officer Tom

Petty Officer Tom wrote:
So are we back to the question "Who is Butler in the Zulu War?"

We will never know his real name or his Identity because see below

THE MURDERER'S REAL NAME.
The authorities now know Butler's real name was not Butler, or Ashe, or Newman, or any name yet published. They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish.
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littlehand

littlehand


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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 4:01 pm

Just a bit more infoe: on The "Flora"

"The ninth “FLORA” was a 36-gun frigate, launched at Plymouth in 1844. She was of 1634 tons, and carried a crew of 360 men. Her length, beam and draught were 160ft., 49ft., and 17ft. In 1879, while acting as a guardship at Simons Bay, the “Flora” contributed two officers, but no men, to join the Naval Brigade which took part in the Zulu War and first Boer War. Surgeon Mahon greatly distinguished himself by his courage and devotion to the wounded in the disaster at Majuba Hill. From 1874 to 1889 this vessel acted as a receiving ship, and in 1890-1891 she acted as a storeship, being sold in 1891. Became guard ship at Simonstown, South Africa from about 1851."
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Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 5:19 pm

datamarine,

The Euphrates was a troop ship,not a 'man-of-war'. She was there bringing reinforcements, and most likely supplies. As she was there in a support role, her entie crew was entitled to the 1879 Medal. The official records show that the officers and men of Euphrates were granted the medal for service from 2nd July to 16th August, 1879. In all there were 261 medals issued to Euphrates, of which 19 were to the Royal Marines.

As to the number of marines on board, 19 was the total number. They were part of the actual crew. All Royal Navy ships had a contingent of marines on board. As for being there in case they were needed, there was no longer any need for additonal men for the naval brigade, the war was winding down and the naval brigade was about to be dismissed.

1879graves

"They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish"

I don't think too many of the enlisted men fit this category. There were only 2 officers from Flora who served in the Zulu War. One was Surgeon Robert Grant and the other was Lt. Palmer K. Smythies. I don't want to make any false accusations, but what if?

Petty Officer Tom



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1879graves

1879graves


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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 6:00 pm

Petty Officer Tom wrote:
I don't think too many of the enlisted men fit this category. There were only 2 officers from Flora who served in the Zulu War. One was Surgeon Robert Grant and the other was Lt. Palmer K. Smythies. I don't want to make any false accusations, but what if?

Hi Petty Officer Tom

That is one line of thought which I have not considered :lol!:

I now have to check :lol!:
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:05 pm

Grant's Out. Suspect
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:12 pm

This is all I can find on Smythies.
Lieutenant. Smythies, P.K. Served during the war in the brigade forming part of Crealock’s Div.

Or is this just one name "Lieutenant Palmer Smythies"
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littlehand

littlehand


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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:19 pm

In 1884 the “Albacore,” commanded by Lieutenant Palmer Smythies, took part in the Egyptian campaign, and assisted in the defence of Suakin against the Mahdists.


Smythies John Palmer, son of John K. Smythies, Esq. 27, Kensington-park-gardens, London, aged 14, March 27 Smythies.
Source: Rugby School Register"


Last edited by littlehand on Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:30 pm

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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:39 pm

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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 7:52 pm

Hi Littlehand

You can rule out Smythies as the article is dated 1906 and Butler was Hung in 1897

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Dated 1906

And this

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 9:14 pm

The authorities now know Butler's real name was not Butler, or Ashe, or Newman, or any name yet published. They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish
the facts.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 9:18 pm

Hi Admin

:lol!:

That has already been published in the thread
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PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 9:24 pm

Quote :
"They are in possession of his real name, and know that his relatives are fairly well to do people in England. They are further of opinion that it would only give them, pain and serve no good purpose to publish"

I thought it might be well to add the name's. Idea
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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 10:12 pm

16 July 1897

Butler, Frank (age: about 45 / White) - New South Wales - Darlinghurst gaol

Murder – victim: Lee Millington Weller – committed on 31 October 1896 – sentenced on 16 June 1897

Butler's procedure was to represent himself as a prospector anxious for a man with some amount of capital to accompany him on a tour in search of the precious metals. Three of his victims had been discovered, and two verdicts of wilful murder were returned against Frank Butler (alias Frank Harwood, alias Richard Ashe) at an inquest at Sydney on 8 December 1896. The body of Lee Weller was decomposed, Weller being dead about five weeks. Death was caused by a gunshot wound at a lonely spot near Glenbrook. Arthur Thomas Osborne Preston met a similar fate at Penrith. A third verdict was returned against Butler on 28 January 1897 in the homicide case of Burgess, who was last seen in Butler's company on 8 August 1896. Butler was not arrested until 2 February 1897, on board the collier Swanhilda, at San Francisco. He was extradited and sent back to Australia on the steamer Mariposa. He arrived at Sydney on 27 April 1897. He stood trial at the Central Criminal Court for the murder of Lee Millington Weller, and was convicted and sentenced to death on 16 June 1897. On that morning Butler attempted to commit suicide with the sharp point of a tobacco tin tag, but he was only slightly injured. Butler was hanged at Darlinghurst gaol, Sydney, at 9 a.m. on 16 July 1897. On the night before his execution, he confessed to all three murders. (The West Australian, Wednesday, 9 December 1896; Friday, 29 January 1897; Thursday, 4 February 1897; Tuesday, 9 February 1897; Monday, 15 February 1897; Wednesday, 7 April 1897; Wednesday, 28 April 1897; Tuesday, 15 June 1897; Thursday, 17 June 1897; Friday, 16 July 1897; Saturday, 17 July 1897; The Brisbane Courier, Saturday, 17 July 1897)

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littlehand

littlehand


Posts : 7076
Join date : 2009-04-24
Age : 55
Location : Down South.

Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptySun Oct 03, 2010 10:36 pm

This is new!!

Detective Roche listened carefully. “I am very sorry for you, Mr. Luckham,” he said. “The position for your friend, Captain Lee Weller, looks very grave. And not only
him, but others too. We have every reason now to believe that he has done these murders on some considerable scale. However, I am leaving for Newcastle at once, as I
have every reason to believe this man, Butler, enlisted under the name of Captain Lee Weller to get away to Canada, and some hiding place. Cables to England have told us this man Butler was an Englishman and a Sunday School teacher.” This was surprising news to hear; that he was such a murderous hypocrite. We said good-bye to Detective Jim Roche, who was a friend of my father’s while practicing and who often asked after him.
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datamarine




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Join date : 2010-10-02

Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?    Medal Roll - Does John Newman appear?  EmptyMon Oct 04, 2010 11:14 pm

Thank you for explaining, Petty Officer Tom. I have learnt a great deal from the contributors on this forum about the role of the ships and the marines and it has helped me a great deal

Kindest regards

Datamarine
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