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Film Zulu quote: Reverend Otto Witt: One thousand British soldiers have been massacred. While I stood here talking peace, a war has started.
 
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 Boy Green Servant

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Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Aug 19, 2011 1:06 pm

Boy Green servant to Surg Major Shepherd. Can anyone shed light on him.

Regards
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90th

90th

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Boy Green Servant Empty
PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 2:43 am

Hi Springbok .
Do you know which unit or Regt he was in before being seconded to Shepherd ?
chees 90th.
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 3:29 am

Hi Sringbok.
All I found is this from Julian Whybra's England' s Sons , Which I think you have anyway .
'' Civilian Attachments to the Army Commissariat and Transport Department , and the staff of no 3 column ; Europeans .
Killed in Action ; Staff No 3 Column , 4 - Boy Green ( Surg - Maj . Shepherd's Servant , Mr Lapparra , ( Lord Chelmesford's Cook )
Mr. Wm . Popworth ( Capt. Gardner's Servant ) and Mr. Robt Turner . ( Lt Coghill's Servant )

cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 7:05 am

90th
Yep got that, Im trying to locate some more personal details. With the so called killing of the "drummer boys" its been more or less proven that they werent boys. Could Green be the Mutilated boy mentioned?

Regards
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 10:34 am

Hi Springbok.
I think it will be nearly impossible to locate any details on ' Boy ' Green as he was a civilian assigned to Surg - Maj
Shepherd . I looked through the Index's of ' The Frontier War Journal Of Major John Crealock 1878 '' & ' The Road
To Isandlwana ' by Philip Gon , Nothing .
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 10:43 am

90th
Ive covered most of the bases, nothing at all. Has to be a record some place. Time to call in the research 'A team'. Little hand ,OH, over to you guys.

Regards
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 10:48 am

Hi Springbok.
On further reflection , your best chance if possible would be to check the Natal Newspapers of the day . On my
previous experience '' Dont hold your breath '' if you ask them for help ! Suspect . If you can check their Archives
on-line you may find something , looking forward to what you may unearth .
cheers 90th. Idea
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 10:59 am

90th
Tried holding my breath once waiting for a reply...................... nuff said Suspect

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 11:13 am

90th
It becomes interesting because of the links in the area.
Andrew Muirhead recorded that Shepard was killed by a thrown spear. He was treating George Macleroy at the time and the spot he died is marked on the battlefield. It would make sense therefore that Green died in close proximity to the two of them, I know thats a pretty big assumption but if its correct then that would put his death site viewably close to the area that Chelmsfords troops occupied. Ergo would it not be possible that his body sparked the stories of misstreatment to the 'Boys"

As I commented, its interesting

Regards
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90th

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PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 11:24 am

Hi Springbok.
I also read Muirhead's report on the demise of Shepherd , thinking also it may mention Green , but as we know , it doesnt.
A fair bit of speculation but I suppose we cant dismiss anything because we just dont know what happened . Shepherd I've
read in another report knew the situation was futile but stayed tending wounded until towards the end , it's possible he
told Green to flee earlier so therefore Green could have been killed anywhere at anytime . I think that report was in Ian Knights
'' Big Silver Book '' on Isand & R.D.
cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptySat Aug 20, 2011 11:43 am

90th
Just to add some more speculation.

Shepherd was one of the leading lights in forming the St Johns Ambulance Brigade in England. That was in 1877. Would it be a huge leap of faith to think that he may have taken one of his students ( Boy Green ) to war with him?
I do know that during the Anglo Boer war a large contingent of 'Johnies" volunteared for service in the Traansval and Free state.
Coincidently one G Green died and is buried at Dewetsdorp.

Regards
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90th

90th

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PostSubject: ' Boy ' Green , Servant .   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 1:03 pm

Hi Springbok.
As you know I contacted the well known zulu war researcher Julian Whybra to see if he could hopefully shed some light
on your man . He has given me permission to post his reply on the Forum .

[url=Boy’ Green does not appear to have been a ‘Boy’ in the military sense of the word. He held no rank whatsoever – I’ve thoroughly searched the AHC and AMD records and there is no trace of him – and he appears to have been a civilian servant which is why I’ve recoded him as such in England ’s Sons. The only information I gleaned was that the barber at Shepherd’s club complained to him about his son and Shepherd offered to take the boy out to South Africa (as a servant) and ‘make a man of him’. I’ve tried to gain access to a number of military clubs’ records (either there’s no reference to a barber called Green or the records are gone) but of course it may have been a civilian club Shepherd belonged to and that is an area I’ve not explored – perhaps the forum’s readers might find in this an avenue of research to explore for themselves.

cheers 90th.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 3:06 pm

90th
Big thanks to Julian, and yourself.
Thats as far as I had reached before hitting the wall. Mr Green the Barber. Im still thinking of the St Johns connection though.

The research now is getting out of my reach...........LITTLEHAND. GRAVES, MR G your the web fundis have a go at cracking this one.

If it could be cracked it would add a tiny little piece to the jigsaw, I remain convinced the answer is out there.

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 3:32 pm

What exactly are we looking for. scratch
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 4:22 pm

Hi Springbok9

I do have one little lead to follow :lol!:
I have a Ref to a G.Green died in South Africa 1879. Now need to do more research into this. Idea
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Boy Green Servant Empty
PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 5:16 pm

I found this on the internet, hope it helps.

“A pathetic story is told of the late Surgeon-Major Shepherd, who lost his life at Ishandhlwana. Before leaving London he engaged as body-servant the son of a club-waiter named Green. ‘I’ll make a man of him,’ he said …” (Moodie's Zulu War, by Duncan Campbell Francis Moodie, page 69)

I don’t have the book so I can’t finish the story. Maybe one of our members can look this up.


Petty Officer Tom
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyThu Sep 01, 2011 5:57 pm

PO Tom
Yep got that far, he was (possibly) the son of his club waiter or barber.
that paragraph continues.........Gree was wounded and it was whilst stopping to aid him that Sheperd lost his life.

Graves
That Green came to Africa with the St johns Ambulance and died in the Free state. Must admit I had high hopes about him.
Wierd coincidence maybe that the Surgeon was a founder of the St Johns Ambulance Brigade and G Green came to SA as a member of that organisation........still not ruling out a connevction though.

Littlehand

We are looking for a younge boy that was killed at isandlwana by the name of Green, servant to Surgeon Sheperd.


Conundrums abound in this infernal battle.

Thanks one and all, keep checking, this can be cracked.................finest brains on the internet.

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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Sep 02, 2011 8:22 pm

Hi Springbok9

Am I thinking along the right track or not?

Boy Green was listed as a servant, so would not have enlisted into any of the services? So would not be found in any Army records.
Would he have needed a passport to travel with Shepherd? even if he was a boy?
When did Shepherd arrive in South Africa?

The reason I asked these questions is for the following reason, I have been looking at the passport applications for the year 1878 and have only found 5 Green's list. Or do I need to go further back to 1877 or 1876?

Sorry mate for all the questions
Idea
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Sep 02, 2011 11:04 pm

Is it possible to find the passenger list of the ship that Shepard sailed on to SA
To see if it list's a Green. That's the other question. What was the name of the ship that took Shepard to SA.
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 7:39 am

Mr G Litllehand

Thanks for the replies guys.
I think youve got the starting point Littlehand, find Sheperds entry into the country and coalate that with the Greens entry. That should give us at least his initials and hopefully his name.
I do know that in 1878 he was stationed in Woolich, thats when he started giving first aid lessons and marked the beginning of the St Johns Ambulance brigade.

Does that give us a start point?
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 9:14 am

Mr G
I believe that 1878 would be the right year for Green and Sheperd to journey to SA.
Green was a civilian so would need a passport. Do you have the Date of Birth of the 5 Greens youve located? As a classified Boy Servant i would imagine his age between 15 and 21.
Looking back at Sheperds available records he is recorded as being in Woolwich in 1878, he wrote probably the 1st First Aid Book and developed a modification to the Liston Splint. There seems to have been an influx around September, Degacher, Younghusband, Coghill etc.

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 10:24 am

We have the date he was send to S.A


PETER SHEPHERD, M.B. SURGEON-MAJOR
.
Dr. Peter Shepherd, who was killed at Isandlwana on 22 January 1879, was the second son of the latePeter Shepherd, farmer, of Craigmill,Leochel Cushnie, Aberdeenshire. He was born 25August 1841, at Craigmill, and received the rudiments of his education at the local school, under Mr. William McRobert; from thence he passed, in 1860, to the Grammar School and University, Aberdeen. He graduated in April 1863, and entered the army in the same year. His first foreign service was at Durban, Natal, where he joined the 99th Foot as Assistant-Surgeon, and subsequently proceeded with it to Maritzburg and Graham’s Town. He accompanied the regiment on its return to England in 1869, but shortly afterwards, in consequence of a desire to see more foreign service, exchanged from it and proceeded to India. He was next gazetted to the 4th Hussars, and continued with that regiment until 1873, when, on regimental appointments being abolished, he was transferred for duty to the 5th Lancers:
in January 1874, he returned with that regiment to England. For the next four years Dr. Shepherd did duty at Woolwich; in September 1876, he obtained his majority; early in 1878 he was detailed, by the War Office, Examiner to the Order of St. John of Jerusalem, with the ambulance classes of which he did much important work. In November 1878, Dr. Shepherd was again sent out to Natal: on arriving, he was attached to the 24th Regiment, and subsequently took part with it in the advance of Glyn’s column, to which it belonged, into Zululand. In the disastrous encounter with the enemy that took place at Isandlwana on 22 January 1879, he shared the fate of the eight hundred of his countrymen who fell. The following is the sad history of his death, as related by an eyewitness, Mr. Muirhead, of the Natal Carbineers: -

Source: The South Africa Campaign of 1878/1879 By Ian Knight and Dr Adrian Greaves
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 10:28 am

Good research littlehand.
Mr G
How do those dates tie in with the passport applications?

Regards
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littlehand

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 am

In February 1878 the troopship HMS Himalaya sailed to South Africa with twenty four Officers, eight Staff-Sergeants, thirty eight other Sergeants, forty Corporals, sixteen Drummers and seven hundred and fifty Privates.

The Himalayer would have been carrying some of the 2nd/24th Warwickshire Regiment of Foot. What Regiment would have Shepherd been attached to. 1/24th or 2nd/24th
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 11:22 am

Littlehand

1/25th and as you pointed out he would have travelled around the November period

Regards
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 11:30 am

Littlehand

He travelled on the 'Conway Castle'

Regards
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Mr Greaves

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 12:34 pm

Boy Green. Was he a Civilian Servant or Soldier Servant. scratch
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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 12:37 pm

Mr G
Civilian servant.

Regards
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Sep 05, 2011 7:43 pm

Hi Springbok9

Working backwards from Nov 1878.

November - No applications for Green.

October - 2 applications for Green.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

September - No applications for Green.

August - 1 application for Green.
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July - 1 application for Green.
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June - 1 application for Green.
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May, April, March, Feb & Jan 1879 - No applications for Green (Males) but there were 2 Females Green's.


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Frank Allewell

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyTue Sep 06, 2011 7:39 am

Thanks Mr G
Gives us then a few possibilities. Ive been looking through the old passenger but the military transposts are a tad problematic. Need to give it a break for a few days as Im heading of today for New Zealand to watch the Mighty Mighty Sprinboks thrash the rest of the worlds Rugby teams in the world cup.
Be in touch next week from the other side of the world.

Cheers Folks
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 2:36 pm

No passport was needed to travel to S Africa for a member of HM Forces or civilian attachments - it was a part of the British Empire. Passport applications won't help you but a passenger list might. Shepherd stopped to aid Macleroy, not Kelly, according to Muirhead (an eyewitness survivor and according to his original testimony; Kelly was a later interpolated error).
Green was a servant. Sorry to disappoint you but the St. John's Ambulance Brigade is a non-starter. It was created solely to provide first aid in railway stations and collieries and that remained its remit until 1887.
Little Hand
I think your acknowledging the wrong people. The quotation comes from Mackinnon and Shadbolt.
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1879graves

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyMon Oct 31, 2011 6:28 pm

Hi Julian

Quote :
No passport was needed to travel to S Africa for a member of HM Forces or civilian attachments - it was a part of the British Empire. Passport applications won't help you but a passenger list might.

Many thanks for pointing me in the right direction, passenger list now on my list,

Idea
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old historian2

old historian2

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Location : East London

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 8:30 am

This question is a bit of the cuff, and I'm in a hurry. Do we know for sure Boy Green was actually at Isandlwana.?
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 9:17 am

old historian
Yes, we know Green was there. He's on the casualty list.
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Dave

Dave

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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:32 am

Is there any accounts of finding Boy Greens body, it wasn't found in the area where Peter Shepherd was killed.
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Julian Whybra



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PostSubject: Re: Boy Green Servant   Boy Green Servant EmptyFri Jun 06, 2014 10:46 am

Dave
No, of course not.  That would go for another 2,000 poor devils that day!  Why would one expect to find Shepherd and Green lying together?  
There is also a newspaper report which mentions Shepherd having taken Green with him to SA.
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